Kataphract Mumakil / Mumakil Innovation

[Muffer Nl]

It is fantasy but the laws of physic are the same as in this world.

[Inarus]

Why not? Adds variation and IS NOT DENIED BY LORE.

P.S. If I remember I will add this idea to my FF... But how could they be killed easily??? Ahh well, Istion is good with a bow and there is Legolas....

[Muffer Nl]

Well Tolkien didn't say they had Beam sabers.

[DisgruntledGoat]

While it may not be denied by lore, the lore suggests they didn't need it. Their hides were so think they deflected arrows. If you have an animal like that, why waste the metal to even make armor.

[Muffer Nl]

Or even the wood.
Yes it does say so. The blackroot Vale archers set out to target the eyes because the hides were too thick.

[Lordinquisitor]

Well harads units aren`t that well armoured in this mod, are they? So why should they "waste" that much iron to protect an already hard to kill creature even more, instead of their elite ifnantry units? Besides being that heavy like mumakil are is already and very big disadvantage- Just think what happens if you come near muddy ground. Now add an thick armor.. Right at the first sign of mud they`ll sink and probably die. In hilly or forested terrain movement would become quite difficult, too, and guess where the Haradrim fought the most of the time against gondor? Right! Ithilien. Hilly, forested, and muddy around the anduin, i guess. And in the desert you don`t wear thick mail- The mumakil simply would overheat and die, or feel very uncomfortable. Even walking in climate areas would become difficult, and they would exhaust very quick and they would need even more food.. And in war you don`t want to gather food all the time. Besides harad is quite an mobile army, and such mumakil would slow them down very much. And while arrows can hurt mumakil, they rarely do.. While you can`t properly protect the "vulnerable" joints, if you don`t want to make it immobile, and spearmen etc. can still hurt them. And while requiring (very) much skill, elven or experienced gondor archers could hit their eyes, you can`t armor their eyes after all. And armor woulnd`t take away the fear of fire from the mumakil. And at the battle of minas tirith the mumakil were used as "click and forget" units. They were sent against the walls, to cause terror and destruction in their wake, but it was quite sure that they woulnd`t be able to do much when at the walls and they would die. So... Why should that much armor wasted on units which are going on an suicid mission anyway? Or on units which might run amok, and run away with your shiny golden stuff.. I think that would be an additional heavy morale hit, to see an walking fortress of gold running away.

And they aren`t mentioned in the books.

[Evan MF]

Well harads units aren`t that well armoured in this mod, are they? So why should they "waste" that much iron to protect an already hard to kill creature even more, instead of their elite ifnantry units? Besides being that heavy like mumakil are is already and very big disadvantage- Just think what happens if you come near muddy ground. Now add an thick armor.. Right at the first sign of mud they`ll sink and probably die. In hilly or forested terrain movement would become quite difficult, too, and guess where the Haradrim fought the most of the time against gondor? Right! Ithilien. Hilly, forested, and muddy around the anduin, i guess. And in the desert you don`t wear thick mail- The mumakil simply would overheat and die, or feel very uncomfortable. Even walking in climate areas would become difficult, and they would exhaust very quick and they would need even more food.. And in war you don`t want to gather food all the time. Besides harad is quite an mobile army, and such mumakil would slow them down very much. And while arrows can hurt mumakil, they rarely do.. While you can`t properly protect the "vulnerable" joints, if you don`t want to make it immobile, and spearmen etc. can still hurt them. And while requiring (very) much skill, elven or experienced gondor archers could hit their eyes, you can`t armor their eyes after all. And armor woulnd`t take away the fear of fire from the mumakil. And at the battle of minas tirith the mumakil were used as "click and forget" units. They were sent against the walls, to cause terror and destruction in their wake, but it was quite sure that they woulnd`t be able to do much when at the walls and they would die. So... Why should that much armor wasted on units which are going on an suicid mission anyway? Or on units which might run amok, and run away with your shiny golden stuff.. I think that would be an additional heavy morale hit, to see an walking fortress of gold running away.

And they aren`t mentioned in the books.

Elephants wore mounds of armour in ancient times and guess where they fought ... Deserts - all the time! And I am pretty sure they were ucomfortable yet still usefull in battle.

They already had to feed those damn things anyway, they must have already had trucks of food and water.

The unit isn't ment to be particularly verstile, it was more of a glamour unit idea ... the 'jewel' unit of Harad.

Te difference between this heay mumakil and the other is that pikes won't pierce the armour so well and therefore won't be able to slow the Mumak down as fast. A Mumak with aromour on is alot more deadly than one without ... imagine the mumakil putting the speed they did in Pelennor whilst in armour, sure they would go slower but the armour would make it a steam engine... It would literally be a moving fortress.

You can certainly armour the eyes up better than they are currently.

It's fits in with our history because we had kataphract mumakil in ancient times ... but also it fits in with fantasy to the extend that it complements the other mumakil type.

And it never stated much about them in the book anyway, so lore can't really intervene that influencialy.

[jinjo]

i think it's overmuch
it is not needed

[Maca]

No, I have already put my opinion of this idea in a few threads. (Evan, you just don't stop, do you?)

[Vaz]

Not needed. Genghis Khan himself decimated the Arabian armies by driving them insane with rage, and even when one shah offered an entire herd of prize war trained bulls, he killed the lot because they were more of a danger to his men. Give them armour, and that's even worse - you have nothing to stop them with then.

I'm not keen on the idea - a) because the Dragon Regiments and Kataphrakts are Rhunic, and b) Mumakil are Haradian.

[Evan MF]

I'm not keen on the idea - a) because the Dragon Regiments and Kataphrakts are Rhunic, and b) Mumakil are Haradian.

Now, this is more of an argument I think.

Although I go on and on about things alot, it doesn't mean I'm stubborn (if you remember the Yurg idea, I was persuaded against it, after some lore facts). I am persuadable, and I can agree with your point. I do see that karaphract units are Rhunic, and Harad units have less armour...

Although I still am not driven off of the idea, I would really want to make one before I make a decision. The problem is how? I've never done any modding with total war games. Can someone help?

Evan

[Maelkoch]

So a metal-poor desert warrior culture would gather tons of metal and cover their nigh-invulnerable beasts-of-war, huh?

The mumakil are very strong as they are now, and if anything, you'd think the Haradrim would use the little metal they have to armour themselves, not possessing a few inch thick skins themselves. The amount of metal armour needed to cover the beasts would weigh tons upon tons, literally. This would have several implications, the beasts would slow down, tire more easily, weaker ones might collapse under the weight and the risk of overheating/dehydration would increase significantly. A giant cloth "armour" might provide protection against arrows, but then again, arrows are not their weakest point really now are they?

Also, this just seems like an überunit. Soon we'll have giant eagles with laser guns- err, lightning staffs strapped to their backs and whatnot. Tolkien did not deny the existence of such eagles, hmh?

[Olifantenstaart]

mithril could work
serious now: doesn´t fit at all in my LotR world.

Mithril was super-expensive..
I definitially vote NO

[Odenathus]

I think it's a 'cool' idea in many ways but it wouldn't be very practical. Besides the dissadvantages of the armour already mentioned I would like to add that the most vulnarable parts of the Mûmak are still unarmoured if you would armour them in ancient or medieval style. The mail or plate or whatever leaves the belly and legs unguarded, and they are the weak spots to cut at. And to even reach the belly would require spears of quite some lenght, so the argument against melee attacks doesn't really come together. Another weak part, the trunk, can't be heavily armoured neither, so I think it's obvious that an armoured Mûmak would do little more then just inspire more fear in the enemies hearts.

And about the Yurgs, I still think that's a valid idea.

Odenat

[Evan MF]

I think it's a 'cool' idea in many ways but it wouldn't be very practical. Besides the dissadvantages of the armour already mentioned I would like to add that the most vulnarable parts of the Mûmak are still unarmoured if you would armour them in ancient or medieval style. The mail or plate or whatever leaves the belly and legs unguarded, and they are the weak spots to cut at. And to even reach the belly would require spears of quite some lenght, so the argument against melee attacks doesn't really come together. Another weak part, the trunk, can't be heavily armoured neither, so I think it's obvious that an armoured Mûmak would do little more then just inspire more fear in the enemies hearts.

And about the Yurgs, I still think that's a valid idea.

Odenat

Yurgs are not it lore at all and it would look stupid to have dwarves riding them. You probably haven't seen the thread about them...

The Persians had fully armoured elephants yet very un-armoured infantry and cavalry. Remember that the armour would hang over the legs covering the vunlnerable lower area of a Mumak.

Yes it may tire but look at the logic, having a horseman covered in armour is going to be slower yet better and breaking infantry lines. A Mumak covered in armour is going to be slower yet better at breaking infantry lines.

You would have the original Mumakil focused on defeating cavalry and the Kataphract Mumakil focused on defeating infantry. The same as the persians did: light armoured elephants for cavalry, heavy armoured elephants for infantry.

[Soul Firez]

make one for yourself mate pretty easy make a copy of the elephant texture open it up apply armour to it and call is say armoured elephant. then in the edu find mumakil make a copy of this entry paste it below but say call it armoured mumakil?

Change the stats of this to what you think they would be (can even change what sort of men are riding on it . change the mount type to say elephant rocket instead of cannon .

go to the mdb find elephant cannon and below it is the rocket version match up all the entries as they are for the cannon version except pointing to your armoured texture (make sure you change the line numbers or game will crash the number must match the amount of letters symbols in entry ).

Go to the descr mount and again find elephant cannon below is elephant rocket match these numbers up ( you could adjust making your armoured ones larger but i wouldnt if i was you ) finally go to the edb and find where mumakil are and enter your new unit but make the recruitment numbers smaller also in the edu make the cost much higher and upkeep higher.

go to your text folder and open export_units.txt file and again find mumakil make your new entry adding your own desription delete the string bin version of the file so the game can rebuild it make a unit card (draw armourover other one) name it what you called unit and make a unit info again drawing your armour on the original and naming it what you called your unit place these in the Ui folder in the correct places and bang your done .

TO EASY

PS i not very keen on the idea so i wouldnt use one they just dont have the metal to waste in harrod and they wouldnt waste it on a beast rather than there men (just my opinion though)

[el Cid]

No, but I have an alternative:

Why not make "baby" Mumaks? They would be the same size as elephants (maybe a bit bigger) and easier to recruit. And they would be able to have some armour, like some mail, as since they are not fully grown yet, and so are vulnerable to missiles because their hides haven't reached their very thick status yet. IMO this would be a good alternative. And would have 2 Haradhrim archers to shoot and 1 Muhad tribesman to ride it.

200th post!

[foesto]

yes it is a good idea

[Seleukos_I.]

I don't think it's a good idea. Why should they send their baby mumakil to war instead of waiting a few years and not waisting them?

[Evan MF]

No, but I have an alternative:

Why not make "baby" Mumaks? They would be the same size as elephants (maybe a bit bigger) and easier to recruit. And they would be able to have some armour, like some mail, as since they are not fully grown yet, and so are vulnerable to missiles because their hides haven't reached their very thick status yet. IMO this would be a good alternative. And would have 2 Haradhrim archers to shoot and 1 Muhad tribesman to ride it.

200th post!

I proposed that once but people said that it was getting too 'out of fantasy'...