Russia - Information & Discussion

[jo the greek]

In the game already russia turns in to a huge Green monster expanding if the towards all areas except(sweden) so giving more strong units will mess things even more

[Ares1000]

In the game already russia turns in to a huge Green monster expanding if the towards all areas except(sweden) so giving more strong units will mess things even more

Then other things needs to be done, like limitation of troops for example.

[OctavianIV]

Perhaps a compromise could be reached - We don't want the Russian infantry to be too strong, otherwise giving advantages to Swedish trooops (for example) would be made redundant. I was thinking, perhaps you could give the Russian Inf. a boost to melee defense while keeping their attack normal, or even giving them a combat bonus in snow? Perhaps this couldbe acessed through a second-tier tech? I do agree however that Russian infantry was not altogether numbers over quality.

[Ares1000]

Russians became some very formidable melee fighters tho, just giving them high defense doesnt really represent them historicly, not under suvorov atleast.
Combat bonus in snow would be fitting but then swedish troops should have that aswell. Increasing the numbers in swedish regiments and reducing the new Russian Regiment to about the same sices and still have sweden slightly better in melee (altough im not so sure swedish troops were better in melee by the mid century) , perhaps increasing the range a bit on swedish canons aswell.

[Lucan]

Russians became some very formidable melee fighters tho, just giving them high defense doesnt really represent them historicly, not under suvorov atleast.
Combat bonus in snow would be fitting but then swedish troops should have that aswell. Increasing the numbers in swedish regiments and reducing the new Russian Regiment to about the same sices and still have sweden slightly better in melee (altough im not so sure swedish troops were better in melee by the mid century) , perhaps increasing the range a bit on swedish canons aswell.

The solution IMO is reducing Russian numbers to the standard of 200 and making them quite good troops once you've researched a certain tech (Suvorov's Doctrine maybe?)

[Swerg]

The solution IMO is reducing Russian numbers to the standard of 200 and making them quite good troops once you've researched a certain tech (Suvorov's Doctrine maybe?)

That would work well, I think. It would also be a good point to switch over to the later-era uniforms.

I still demand kiver-style shakos. Best headwear ever

[Ares1000]

To get late era uniforms you need new units right ?, so with the tech researched we get to recruit our new improved melee strong Russians.

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

Why do Infantry Cossacks fire by rank? I would've thought that they wouldn't.

[trance]

Swedish training mid 18th century never remarkably change, and still had the same high quality as before. Alas, their numbers were in great decline after Poltava. I say that the russians are fine as they are actually. Their numbers more than make up for the lack of training.

[Lukianos]

I think there is a general misconception about Russian Infantry of this era. While ballistically their stats represents them accurately, I think their melee stats need to be adjusted. During the Seven Years' War, many can argue that the Russians proved their mettle against other Western European counterparts, such as at the Battle of Gross-Jägersdorf and the Battle of Zorndorf. I have read some sources that noted the Russians were extremely efficient in bayonet skills, albeit their numerical advantages shouldn't be overlooked. They also frequently place the blame for the poor functioning of the Russian military on the low-quality officer-class.

Regardless, their accuracy and reload times are accurate, but I think a small boost in their melee capabilities is necessary.

Just an idea!

[Lucan]

I think there is a general misconception about Russian Infantry of this era. While ballistically their stats represents them accurately, I think their melee stats need to be adjusted. During the Seven Years' War, many can argue that the Russians proved their mettle against other Western European counterparts, such as at the Battle of Gross-Jägersdorf and the Battle of Zorndorf. I have read some sources that noted the Russians were extremely efficient in bayonet skills, albeit their numerical advantages shouldn't be overlooked. They also frequently place the blame for the poor functioning of the Russian military on the low-quality officer-class.

Regardless, their accuracy and reload times are accurate, but I think a small boost in their melee capabilities is necessary.

Just an idea!

Well, no. If we're talking about Suvorov-era Russian infantry, everything about them should be better-than-average, not just their melee and morale. Suvorov loved the bayonet, but he still put a great stress on shooting because he realized it wasn't always desirable (or even possible) to close with the enemy.

[Lukianos]

I stand corrected then! Perhaps the "crappy" Russian army stereotype is a little too overplayed within IS? Not that I want to play down the work that has been done, I suppose the game is balanced regardless.

Considering Suvorov is one of the few undefeated commanders in history, I think his personal leadership also had a considerable effect on the performance of the Russian army than anything else. Regardless, Suvorov didn't gain command till around 1770, which is the later part of the game. This is probably beyond the scope of this mod, but maybe later in the game the Russians can research a Suvorov related technology that upgrades their infantry?

[Erunion Telcontar]

Alas, we could only choose one real era of Russian Line to base ours after, so we chose the one that grants the most balance to the faction. Now, Russia has great guards infantry, excellent irregular cavalry in their cossacks, larger numbers and awesome artillery. If we'd given them Suvorov class line infantry they would have been majorly overpowered.

[The Vicar]

^ QFT ^

It must be remembered that Russia, in the game, also has a massive economy. Not at first, mind you, but the potential is there, but by mid-game their economy is possibly second only to the Indian factions. If we made their units as "historically correct" as some people would have us believe, then we would necessarily have to balance their units in other ways, which would then of course be picked apart by players as not being correct.

Believe me when I say that I know about the Russian imbalances and inaccuracies. At some point, following excessive amounts of play-time and tweaking and the introduction of continually new ideas, we may get them to a point where almost everybody is happy with them. For now, however, they are what they are, and most of what people complain about was done from a solely gameplay-balance perspective.

[Lukianos]

Hope I didn't agitate anyone in the IS team, I didn't realize how much thought process went into the "flavour" of a faction. You guys have done amazing work, and I can see why you chose to balance Russia in this way.

I noticed too that once you get the Russian economy going, it's easy to get between 50-75k per turn. Such a large economy translates to huge armies, which the Russians are definitely known for. I guess it is also fair to say that their troop quality did vary from period to period, all depending on the Tsar and quality of commanders.

But anyways, thanks for the great work on the mod! Looking forward to 2.2!

[The Vicar]

No, you didn't agitate us.

Personally, I rather like these sorts of discussions, as it enables us to grow as a mod when people point out our errors/historical discrepancies.

But of course, at some point, the mod creators usually have to step in to explain why they did what they did; especially if they aren't going to change the mod/faction anytime soon.

Now, as I believe I've said elsewhere, Russia and the UP are my two personal favorite factions. Not that I consider them the most fun, or the most challenging, or anything like that, but rather for some reason they are the ones that I immediately "go to" on first impulse when starting a new game, and have to check myself. It personally always seems like I'm doing something for/to the Russian faction, and have big plans for them, and must continually remind myself that there are a LOT of factions in the game that deserve attention.

So, if it doesn't appear like anything is being done to Russia, or that Russia is somehow being lost in the shuffle, be aware that it most certainly isn't.

[Rifal004]

OK seriously! Something needsto be done about russia, im currently at 1750 as Sweden and every single battle against russia has been noting but mounted cossacks. Does Russia just dont want line infantry or what? Please do something about this as slaughtering everysingle horse in russia is no fun at all.

[Rifal004]

Hmm, ok Russia is now recruiting line and garrison infantry (Yay!) whoever when I try to use the Carolean tactic with the Swedes there is a problem, as soon as I fire the Volley the russian line routs before I can even charge them, really annoying.

[iosif]

The russians route to quicly add a bit more moral please. I attacked a sweede line infantry with cossacks(infantry) and streltsy. This was they're last unit even their general was dead and imediatly they lost like 5 units my streltsy routed. This is a bit ridiculous imo, this was a meele so I think they're meele should be a little higher aswell not to much but a enough so hey don't route before a totally demoralized enemy

[NikolaTesla]

The reason you lost that fight is because you used Streltsy against Sweden, who are hardcore knife fighters. Streltsy are quite possibly the worst unit in the game, and you should never use them. They were meant to be like that because they were the crap units Russia had before they westernized.