Abortion [PureInfantryWins vs CobraStallone]

[CobraStallone]

This debate is about the topic of abortion, whether it's acceptable in general, on certain circumstances, or never. I will take the stand that abortion should be legal and it's ok in general and PureInfantryWins will take the stand that it is only ok in the case of a rape.

My opening statement is that the parents or in the case of a single mother, should have full authority to choose if they want to bring a child into to the world, and if for some reason they choose to avoid this they should be able to terminate the pregnancy before the fetus/embryo has become considerably developed (12 weeks of pregnancy is given as a usual parameter).

[Imperator Romani]

I'm excited about this one. Thanks Cobra for accepting the challenge.

I would side with you, if we didn't have so many ways to prevent getting pregnant. Most of these are easily affordable, even affordable for the lower classes. You can use birth control, condoms, you can have surgery, and you can use an Intrauterine device, which is 99% effective until around 6 years when it becomes 98% effective. It can stay in place for ten years and is very cheap. Use this with a condom, and you're basically having safe sex.

My point is that it is easy today to be responsible and not have a child by practicing safe sex.

[CobraStallone]

I quote from wiki:

The typical use pregnancy rate among condom users varies depending on the population being studied, ranging from 10–18% per year. The perfect use pregnancy rate of condoms is 2% per year.

So that would levae you with some significant number of pregnancies (some that would be wanted to be avoided), even if everyone used contraceptive methods. And for example if I had a daughter that got pregnat at age 13 or something and if she didn't used a condom out of stupidity and didn't want the baby I would punish her by forcing her to have it.

[Imperator Romani]

wiki can be changed by anyone at anytime. Not a reliable source, and I'd like for you to post the source. It's just a nice habit.

Here's mine that states they are 97-100% effective. http://www.avert.org/teens-condoms.htm
another source that states they are 86-97% http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/mal...ceptives1.html
86-97 and 99% http://www.infoforhealth.org/pr/h9/h9chap4.shtml

Also, what about birth control. And what about surgery and the intrauterine device? Touch on those as well. Coupled with each other will greatly reduce the rate of pregnancies.

And adoption. Why kill the potential child if you could give it to someone who wants it?

[CobraStallone]

wiki can be changed by anyone at anytime. Not a reliable source

Agreed, yet in this case I have no reason to doubt wiki's info

Also, what about birth control. And what about surgery and the intrauterine device? Touch on those as well. Coupled with each other will greatly reduce the rate of pregnancies.

Well surgery is not exactly for everyone, the age group of 18-30 are hardly going to want it. The intrauterine device on the other hand has no protection against STD's.

And adoption. Why kill the potential child if you could give it to someone who wants it?

I'm pro abortion as a last option so adoption could be a solution, but not the only option. For a lot of women it can be quite a traumatic experience to give birth to a child and have to be separated, also a lot of countries have a very deffecient adoption system that could potencially bring quite an unhappy life to that child.

[Imperator Romani]

Well surgery is not exactly for everyone, the age group of 18-30 are hardly going to want it. The intrauterine device on the other hand has no protection against STD's.



For a lot of women it can be quite a traumatic experience to give birth to a child and have to be separated, also a lot of countries have a very deffecient adoption system that could potencially bring quite an unhappy life to that child.

We're not talking about STD's, we're talking about preventing pregnancy.

The woman rather deny the child life than give it up to someone who can take care of it? That doesn't make much sense to me.
A life is better than no life. That child may be raised in a poor family, but it gets to live and love. Why deny that child life because it might go to a bad family.

[CobraStallone]

A life is better than no life.

Well that is an important part of my opinion on this subject, I don't consider a fetus to be sentient human life, I consider it potencial life of sorts, and I have no problem with denying it the right to become alive because that is what you do when you use contraceptive methods, you prevent the potencial life of sperm and eggs from coming to beign.

[Imperator Romani]

A fetus is the beginning of a human. It may not be a developed human, but it's a human nontheless.

And continue on about contraceptive methods, I'm not sure I follow you.

[CobraStallone]

A fetus is the beginning of a human. It may not be a developed human, but it's a human nontheless.

And continue on about contraceptive methods, I'm not sure I follow you.

What do you mean, what I said about preventing life?

[Imperator Romani]

that is what you do when you use contraceptive methods

Explain that

[CobraStallone]

I mean that using contraceptive methods you avoid the development of potencial human life, and I consider a just concevied embryo to be just that, potencial life.

[Imperator Romani]

So what's your point, what does this have to do with abortion being right or wrong?

[CobraStallone]

That I don't consider stopping potencial life wrong, and I consider an early abortion to be the same thing in principle as using contraceptive methods.

[Imperator Romani]

Contraceptive methods prevent pregnancy, nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. There is no life to be had. Preventing pregnancy and terminating pregnancy are different. Let's not lump those together and say they're the same thing. Once you get pregnant you have life inside of you, you're responsible for it. As long as there is nothing there period, then everything's ok. These two things are different.

[CobraStallone]

Agreed, abortion and preventing conception are different things but they do the same, preventing potencial human life from existing, unless you consider a 1-12 week old embryo a human individual.

[Imperator Romani]

An embryo period is a potential human. Where are you going with this?

[CobraStallone]

That if stopping potencial life with a condom is not seen as a bad thing, stopping it with an abortion shouldn't be seen as bad either. I don't see a big difference.

[CobraStallone]

We are going over the same point over and over in here so I'm going to diverge a little bit. If a couple or woman has a strong reason to not wanting to bring a child into the world I see nothing wrong with there beign a option to do this, as a last option perhaps. Povery, age, disease, social stigma, for example can lead to this desition, and as I have stated before adoption is not always a viable alternative.

[Imperator Romani]

You are preventing it with a condom, and terminating it with an abortion.

When you use a condom, you are taking steps to make sure you don't create a little you. You are making sure the sperm and egg don't join, meaning that you and your partner do not create anything that wasn't there before.
An abortion is when there is something there, and you just want to get rid of it. You have created it, but you don't feel like raising it or don't feel that you can. You are destroying something that you have brought into existence.
Saying that abortion and preventing pregnancy are the same is like saying having chemotherapy and not having chemotherapy are the same. One is with cancer there, and you are destroying it, and one is without cancer there, so there is no treatment.


What can be a good enough reason to stop a being from being conceived? Adoption is the last option. That's why people do it, they're afraid they can't take care of it or the child won't be raised correctly or that they're too poor and the child won't be happy. The last option isn't legit as money doesn't mean happiness. There are plenty of people out there who want a child, that's why there has never been too many children for adoption agencies, the children are getting killed off. So, adoption is the replacement of abortion, and it gives the child a life.

And I'll make another exception to go with rape, diseased or some medical problem. If the child is seriously disabled or messed up, or the mother would be put at risk, then abortion would be ok. A sixth thumb doesn't count here, but rather a missing lung.

[CobraStallone]

What can be a good enough reason to stop a being from being conceived?

Hey, new name

It depends on the way you think. But rape, malformations, poverty to a degree of beign unable to satisfy the child's basic needs, health of the mother (having a baby at age 13 ain't exactly good for you), social consecuences (such as having to drop out of high school), the desire to have a traditional family when the couple decides it, or social stigma in a society that severly frowns upon children out of wedlock that could ruin the mothers' life for example come to mind. And from a clinical point of view enormous and growing overpopulation is also a factor.