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Thread: Gothic factions

  1. #1
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Gothic factions

    The Thervingi Goths

    The Thervingi (also known as Visigoths) were an ancient Germanic people from the Baltic coast region who migrated towards Dacia in the 3rd century AD, but before that they were reputed to have crossed the Baltic from their original homeland. They settled around the Vistula river and at some point the tribes divided into the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths, or Western Goths. The Western Goths were the first barbarians to carry out a major incursion into Roman territory and, while the other barbarians were even more brutal in their warmaking, the Goths struck fear into the enemies. Their practice of sacrificing captives to their war god, Tyz, was particularly horrifying.

    This practice has been abandoned now that the Goths have adopted the Arian version of Christianity. They are, however, still dangerous warriors and well able to exploit any weakness in Roman lands or among their more barbarous neighbours.

    Historically the Goths were driven across the Danube and into Roman territory by pressure from the steppes. While the Goths tried to behave peaceably the Romans treated them abominably. At the battle of Adrianople in 378 the Goths destroyed an Imperial army and killed the Emperor.

    The naming of this people is problematic. Some time shortly after 291 Mamertinus made a eulogy of Emperor Maximian (285-308) in which he says that the "Tervingi, another division of the Goths" (Tervingi pars alia Gothorum) joined with a band he calls the Taifali to attack the Vandals and Gepidae (Genethl. Max. 17, 1). But about a hundred years later the term changes to Vesi. Correspondingly, the other branch was originally called Greutungi, but this was soon replaced by Ostrogothi ("gleaming goths"), and from the 390s and onwards the earlier terms are only found in epic poetry. The term Vesi or Visi came from Gothic Wisi, Wesi "the noble people", similar to Gothic iusiza "better".

    By the 5th century the two main branches were known as Vesi and Ostrogothi whenever sources cared to specify them more specifically than Goths. When Cassiodorus wrote the history of the gothic peoples in the early sixth century, he interpreted Ostrogothi as "East Goths" and invented the term Visigothi to denote "West Goths." This usage has continued to this day, though since the 1970s, modern historians have started to use the contemporary terms instead of Cassiodorus' interpretations. Some scholars associate the name Visi with "Wise".


    The Greuthungi Goths

    The Greuthungi (Ostrogoths, Gleaming Goths or Eastern Goths), in distinction to the Thervingi (Visigoths, Noble Goths or Western Goths), were a Germanic tribe that influenced political events of the late Roman Empire. An older appellation, "Greutungi" (possibly "those of the steppe"), gave way to Ostrogothi "eastern Goths" (cf. OHG ostar, ON austr) and Old Norse gotar ("men") around the sixth century.

    The Ostrogoths settled in the Ukraine until effectively subdued by the arrival of the Huns. Their recorded history begins with their independence from the remains of the Hunnic Empire following the death of Attila the Hun. Allied with the former vassal and rival, the Gepids and the Ostrogoths led by Theodemir broke the Hunnic power of Attila's sons in the Battle of Nedao in 454.

    The Ostrogoths now entered into relations with the Empire, and were settled on lands in Pannonia. During the greater part of the latter half of the 5th century, the Ostrogoths played in south-eastern Europe nearly the same part that the Visigoths played in the century before. They were seen going to and fro, in every conceivable relation of friendship and enmity with the Eastern Roman power, until, just as the Visigoths had done before them, they passed from the East to the West.



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  2. #2
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    One problem here-the Tervingi and Grethungi combined with the goths of radagasius and became visigoths shortly before the first siege of rome under alaric.

  3. #3
    Lionheart's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    If i'm not wrong the Goths under Radagaisus were exterminated after the battle against Stilicho.
    However i read in some book that only once a group of Ostrogoths joined with the Visigoths. Also in Visigothic spain during the minority of Amalric the regent of the kingdom was Theodoric the Great grandfather of the king. After the assassination of the king two ostrogoth dux ruled was kings that period that covers the regency of Theodoricj and the two ostrogothic king is usually know was the intermezzo ostrogothic.
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  4. #4
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    As this mod is set before both groups later emerged as Ostrogoths and Visigoths, there is no problem.

    As for the Gothic horde under Radagaisus, it was defeated by Stilicho and so many prisoners were sold off as slaves that the proverbial bottom fell out of the market. Also, Olympiodorus records that Stilicho drafted 12,000 of the better warriors into his army - these probably formed the nucleus of the 30,000 Goths who went over to Alaric on his second invasion of Italy.

  5. #5
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    i thought there were 30000 goths and they later picked up those extra 10k from the italian field army

  6. #6
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    No, the 12,000 or so (remember we only have a fragment of Olympiodorus) were the elite warriors of Radagaius which Stilicho recruited into the Italian army. These went over to Alaric after Stilcho's murder and the pogrom by Roman troops against the wives and children of these warriors (held hostage in the towns to maintain their loyalty). Slaves later joined Alaric near Rome in their thousands (Peter Heather speculates that the bulk of them must have been the Goths sold into slavery after Radagaisus' defeat). So we have 2 separate Gothic contingents joining Alaric - the warriors enrolled by Stilicho and possibly the slaves sold off by him.

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    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    That explains a lot.

  8. #8
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    It's still mainly conjecture raised on a surviving fragment but - as you say - it seems to make sense!

  9. #9
    Lionheart's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    I agree that certanly is a very true possibility.
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  10. #10
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    Your talking of Goths, Visi/Ostro like they are a race of peoples, they are not, they groups amalgamated under a strong leadership, Theodoric pretty much had to invent the Ostrogothic heritage and its Amal leadership and later his claim to Visigoth kinship and his right to rule all 'Goths' whether Italy or Spain and to separate himself and the 'Goths' from their Roman inheritance, yet claiming to rule the Romans. To quote from Oxford University press review 1993 entitled the "Goths without the Getica" the writer reviews P Heathers, Jordannes and Gothic history.Heather : "Heather deconstructs Jordannes Getica And demonstrates that, derived as it is from Cassiodorus' flattering and amusing but wholly tendentious version of the Gothic past- written to divert the Ostrogothic court, it cannot and should not be used to construct 'an historical framework' in which to let the early development of the Gothic peoples, or to support any notion of their ethnic or political continuity"
    opinions based on Peter Heather (The fall of the Roman empire),(Jordannes and Gothic History) and James o'Donnel(the ruin of the Empire)
    Last edited by Constantius; July 31, 2010 at 01:32 PM.


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  11. #11
    Lionheart's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Gothic factions

    True Theodoric the Amal was one of the most sharpest rulers of the Goths. However the Ostrogothic kingdom do not survive is death however the Visigoths continued and them turned into Asturias.
    I know that the conflicts inside ostrogothic italy erupted after the death of Theodoric and i have also presente the war of Justinian and them the lombard invasion.
    However i wonder what make Visigothic spain survive more. Is rulers is one explanation. But perhaps the works of Theodoric were short living because the Ostrogoths only exist because of him. Perhaps due to a long tradition on the Visogoths they are able to survive for a longer time?
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