Myths About Huns you never heard of

[HorseArcher]

I started to read a really good book (hungarian), it's a collection of old myths about the huns, their battles, Attila, and the Magyars. These stories were collected from hungarian folk, szekely myths and some other chronicles written by various people.
The book is written in a very simple language so it's almost childlike to read and I was thinking that some of you might want to hear some great stories about the Huns, Attila, magyars and the battles that taken place during that time period. As i translate this, there will be some gaps, as these stories not complete, but rather put together from bits and pieces, and as well time of passing these stories from one generation to another, the story changed somewhat, which is usual with myths and tales. You might hear some very interesting parts also, some of these infos sound very convincing to fill in the missing part of our history, but since these are myths, you cannot take them as a proof, but disregarding them as nonsence would be ignorant.

So....Do any of you want to hear some ?

( I put a little sample here already: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...&page=10&pp=30

just find my last few posts.

[Perkele]

More please

[al-caid]

well, I would rather look at this...

http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/...eline%20En.htm

[Dromikaites]

Yep, translate some more, please.

[HorseArcher]

well, I would rather look at this...

http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/...eline%20En.htm

You just made a similar opposition here, like you have something against me:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...930#post519930

It seems like you are missing the meaning terminology here.
mythology: A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
2.fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

So please, just another reminder: not history.

[Dromikaites]

You just made a similar opposition here, like you have something against me:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...930#post519930

It seems like you are missing the meaning terminology here.
mythology: A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
2.fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

So please, just another reminder: not history.

I think he wants to point out that the idea that Huns and Magyars/Hungarians are related is also a legend in itself. Anyway you clearly said from the very begining that you're going to translate legends, that is fiction based or not on real events...

So go on translate and post some more: as you say, legends do give an insight into the ideals of the people who preserve and transmit them from generation to generation. Even though Hungarians do not belong to RTW period, this doesn't mean those legends are out of place here. This is not a 270 BC - 14 BC only area, it's reserved for any type of historical topics.

[HorseArcher]

We also know we aren't the same. Maybe by lifestyle or some long forgotten share of area. Ask any hungarian and they will tell you that huns vs. hungarians, 2 different type of people. We (magyars) are the first one to point out the the word "hun-garian" has nothing to do with the "hun" as the hunnic invaders of Pannonia (it's still common mistaken by other countries) and we don't call each other that and you will never hear a hungarian calling the other "hungarian". ( we call ourself magyarok). There might have been some connection back in time, but there were some faint recordings of the "magyars" as an existing tribe at the time of the huns. Later on people got mixed up, (as today) and it was impossible to tell who is from who and why. Just like a today's age german man cannot say, that he is a clear blood germanic, because there is no such a thing anymore, since germanic tribes got mixed up with all kinds of different other people (romans,goths,gauls, and who knows what). By the way, the word "hungarian" comes from the turkish "unagur" which means 10tribes, and even that proves that 7 magyar tribes plus 3 other nomadic tribes (most likely turkic type like the pechenegs and kuns or similar, who were also some long time nomadic rivals of the magyars)


back to the topic. The first one I will translate is the Attila vs. Aetius roman general's battle, as it was recorded by Jordanes and Callimachus. (please stand by for now, sorry)

[al-caid]

Well, even 9th century Magyars are not the 21th century Magyars. As you cannot say that 9th century Saxons are 21th century English. Magyars are mentioned even in frankish sources, as well as their union with turkic Khazar tribes (exiled from their homeland?) and under pressure of another turkic tribe, Petschenegs.

Hunno-magyar symbolic is very confusing, very like what Poles do with Sarmats, it leads to easy und unaccurate view on history. In fact, tatarian Huns marching on the west were assimilated by turkic tribes, already before they crossed ie Danube. So even what we call "Huns" are not the Hsiung-nu as called by Chinese. Magyar tribes (I use this word as a half-magyar too and there is no difference between "magyar", "ugri" and "hungarian" in this speach, as you surely know) had perhaps same ancestors as Avars, which came to Pannonia in 6th century with some subdued hunnobulgar tribes (dh turkic ones). However, I take Magyars as an original part of european nationality coctail. You know, Huns and their turkic descendants were pure barbarians, which died out due to cultural assimilation, even despite their military power. Magyars were more of an european style, able to build an own culture and even fulfill and spread it... But I don't take your opinion, if it is the war what interests you on your ancestors, be it so :/

sorry for OT

[Dromikaites]

By the way, the word "hungarian" comes from the turkish "unagur" which means 10tribes, and even that proves that 7 magyar tribes plus 3 other nomadic tribes (most likely turkic type like the pechenegs and kuns or similar, who were also some long time nomadic rivals of the magyars)

Any idea how did the Europeans come to call the Magyars "Hungarians"? The Turcik origin ("unagur") of the name makes me think the name was that given to them by the Pechenegs, Cumans or the Khazars and the Europeans learned it from them.

[VandalCarthage]

Any idea how did the Europeans come to call the Magyars "Hungarians"? The Turcik origin ("unagur") of the name makes me think the name was that given to them by the Pechenegs, Cumans or the Khazars and the Europeans learned it from them.

Good question. I'd always understood that it wasn't based on their own language roots, but a derivation of south-eastern word.

[HorseArcher]

Good question. I'd always understood that it wasn't based on their own language roots, but a derivation of south-eastern word.

I'm sorry, I still haven't started my translation of the myths (because of a girl ), but i can give you a few ideas and some latest search of our ancestry along with other similar nomadic tribes about ideas of origins, what happened to them etc. (later on this though...)

Al-caid, you seems like someone with some good intelligence and for your latest post, i agree with you in many things. However, we (magyars) hoping that once we find something in our history to grab on an prove many things that floats around about us and others, we can have a better self-understanding and we can better clearly self-identify ourselves in the history. I know (and you noticed probably ), that the hungarians can be very stubborn people, but proud at the same time. We will stand up against anyone calling us "barbarians", since we always placed above ourselves of some no-name/no-home group of tribe and we refuse to beleive, that we are such insignificant.

Granted, when the magyars entered europe in the 9th century, we robbed, killed, enslaved the people living there already.
It was something, that came with the nomadic lifestyle. We did not sit in one place too long, we did not make a farm and raise animals and plant crops, but we rather roamed around and for our need of wealth, we rather robbed others. But let me remind you, that we beleive that it wasn't because we never did these things before. We beleive, that sometime before the great migration of our people, we did have settlements, we did do all those things, but it was all forgotten and not much proof exists to be clear on this.
Also to be noted, our first thing was after settling down, was our election of our king (Saint Istvan) and to pick up christianity, because we realized, that by living off from the robbing/invading lifestyle, our existence was in danger. We had to pick up the same lifestyle religion and make peace, or we would have ended up as the huns, or any of the other nomads, which are no longer exist today. Our king hunted down the last remaining "magyars" that did not convert to the new system. It was magyar against magyars for a long time as slowly our nation resembled the shape of a country, which started to fit in with the rest of the europeans.
Unfortunately, today we still have problems; That rebellious and pagan "magyar" steppe people, which was hunted by his own and others, still live -if nowhere else- in our DNA.

[al-caid]

Well, every tribe had to start somehow. But Magyars have more noble parts in their history than their nomadic part. But ok, I don't want to argue about opinions. I see Hungary as a first state which brought order to these lands, as ie avarian kaganate, Samo's Realm or Moravia were nearly constantly in a civil war. Well, same counted for Hungary in its first centuries too, and this was because we were able to...hm, supress the wild blood ;)

By the way, after Hungary became a kingdom, they were recruiting nomads from the east later too, perhaps I could look for some legends about them as well, if you are interested...

[Dromikaites]

The thread becomes more and more interesting. Let me throw my 2 cents in.

First, it is interesting to see how the contact with Christianity and the Roman empire (in its versions: proper Roman, Byzantine, Frankish/Holy Roman) made many populations give up their nomadic styles and become sedentary. The Germans (Goths, Franks, Vandals) became Christian and copied to some degree the Roman ways. The Hungarians, after raiding Europe as far as Toulouse in France found themselves caught between the HRE and the Byzantines and chose to adjust to the new realities. The Avars before them didn't and were wiped out...

Second, it seems that the decision to "copy" the Romans or not doesn't have much to do with the relative strenght of the opposing sides: the Western Roman empire was on its last legs when the Ostroghots and the Vandals "absorbed" its know-how. The Avars were in an equaly strong position relative to the Byzantines, yet they didn't see fit to convert to christianity. The Hungarians were severely defeated by the Germans at Lechfeld but were not under imminent danger neither from the Germans nor the Byzantines when they chose to become christians. It seems therefore that whatever the cause for "adjusting" was, it was more closely linked to the internal situation of that people than of the external circumstances. And this is where Archer's legends come handy. I assume that some pre-Christian legends were invoked by Stephen and his partisans in order to convince the pagan population that converting to Christianity was the next logical step. Any idea of such pre-Christian legends?

Let me give you and example of a theory that tries to explain why the early Romanians (Daco-Romanians) became Christian without having a king to order it. The Dacian religion was centered around one major God, Zalmoxis, who lived in the sky. Before rising to the sky Zalmoxis used to live on Earth as a human. He was very wise, gave laws to the Dacians and after dying (acording to some Greek historians he was murdered by people who were against his teachings) he miraculously came back to life. Shortly after his resurection he rose to the sky. Several similarities with Jesus are evident. Therefore some people say that this belief in Zalmoxis made the Daco-Romans switch to christianity under the influence of the missionaries, without the need of any high authority to decree a new official religion.

[HorseArcher]

I assume that some pre-Christian legends were invoked by Stephen and his partisans in order to convince the pagan population that converting to Christianity was the next logical step. Any idea of such pre-Christian legends?

Well, what i read, that most of the myths were supressed by their writers/historians, because of the fear of being prosecuted by the system. I read this also in this book, that even Anonymus (his chosen name) were afraid to come out with the stories he gathered, because of the fear of execution to anything, that connects to the old faith and belief. I also have a story, as a whole town marched to the castle to be "on-strike" against the new religion (chistianity) and what they achieved was, that the soldiers stormed out and killed every last one of them without warning. There is one well-known hungarian story of Koppany, one of the last leaders of the rebels, who was well respected and a wealthy chieftain of some magyars. He had a few success wars against the king's army, but after he lost and he was caught, he was executed and his body was cut into many pieces. His bodyparts were distributed to the biggest towns and were put up to a public place, to frighten all, who tries to rise against the religion.

Just a sidenote: his legend never died, and even today, we still have smaller groups/political gatherings of these "bandits", who still claim Koppany as their role model and true leader and follow his idea and beliefs. (There is more on, what Koppany tried to accomplish if he would have succeded to be a supreme ruler, but I have no info on this.)

[Dromikaites]

Wasn't Koppany his uncle? It looks like the power struggle was fierce...

And another question: his initial name, Vajk/Vojik/Voicu seems to be of Slavic origin (meaning brave or warrior) and some Slovakian Christian noblemen helped him militarily - was his mother Slovakian?

[al-caid]

Many legends were reinterpreted in christian traditions as well, with pagan heroes or gods became angels and saints. Like ie Sigurd coincided with st George or slavonic sun-god Svarog was replaced by archangel Michael as a traditional harbinger of summer. Well, each era reinterprets old myths in own words, to find this we need only to go to cinema once a while ;D

[HorseArcher]

Wasn't Koppany his uncle? It looks like the power struggle was fierce...

And another question: his initial name, Vajk/Vojik/Voicu seems to be of Slavic origin (meaning brave or warrior) and some Slovakian Christian noblemen helped him militarily - was his mother Slovakian?

Istvan's (Stephen) original name was Vajk. His brothe was Vazul. Interesting, how his name wasn't anything hungarian related such as Arpad, or Almos.

By the way, here is a short story (a myth from my book) why Almos was called Almos. (the hungarian chieftain at the time of entering the Carpathian plains)


(this is not perfectly direct translation from hungarian, meaning, I have to re-do some grammar and some words because hungarian cannot be translated word to word, but you all know this. I insert my comments and notes also)


In the year of 819.AD. Ǖgyek (a name of a chieftain), who was a descendant of King Mágóg, married Ōnedbelia's daughter, named Emese. She had a son called Álmos, who got his name from a miracle.
The word "Álom" means dream in hungarian. Emese had a dream about that she will have a son, who will be a very significant person on this world.
She had the dream about a huge bird called turul (see my sig) landing on her (lol) and impregnate her with a boy. She also saw that this son and his descendents will be kings and rulers in a distant land from "szittya land" (scyhtia in hungarian, it is strange, but almost every single myth has something about scythia and calling scythia as the motherland). She couldnt' recognize the land she saw, but she knew, it wasn't "szittyaorszag". (scythia)
So his son name became "Álmos" (which means "man of dream" in correct way, but also means "sleepy, tired" )
The reason that the magyars left their land? There was just too many people and the land couldn't provide enough food to support everyone. (ed: by the way, the book talks about many different cultures living in "Szittyafold", different languages and different factions, but all share the same land and live in peace.)
So the 7 magyar chieftains, couldn't stand the situation, and they decided to find a new home. They were aiming for Pannonia, which was known, that once the mighty Attila ruled, who was blood related to Álmos through his father, Ǖgyek. So the magyars felt as the rightful owner of Pannonia are the magyars, the last few descendants of Attila. (remind you, this is a myth), So they chose Álmos as their leader, by doing a blood treaty. the 7 magyar chieftain cut their hands and bleed into a cup and swore up for Arpad as their leader from now on. Each of them drank from the cup is it was passed around and swore for Arpad and the magyars and let the one be cursed forever, who brakes the treaty. (i'm not going into details what else they swore for, just a bunch of do's and donts' about not to brake the alliance and bring shame for the magyars)
.

So that was one of the stories, with my explanations and notes in parenthesis.


edit:
New story.

Attila's Dinner. - by Priscos Retor, greek/roman diplomat and writer

...

After a long and adventurous journey, representatives of Rome, finally arrived to Erdely. Soon, they met with Attila's guards, who guided them as they were walking by the Tisza river. After a while, they arrived in a small village where they saw Attila's wife Reka's house, which was beautiful. Some other hun chief also built some nice houses here, especially Onegesios's house was quite beautiful.
Attila was also on the way to this village, to meet up with the roman diplomats and as he entered the village, a bunch of girls ran up to him, to meet the famous leader. As they lined up beside Attila's horse they formed a line, and some other women were holding large silks above their head and they walked the king home as they were singing "szittya" songs.
As they passed by Onegesios' house, they stopped for a minute, as Onegesios' wife and house maids brought food and wine to the people, to celebrate the return of Attila.
Attila didn't get off the horse, he ate and drink as he was sitting and he was eating from a silver plate, which was full of all kinds of goodies.
After this Attila drank from a cup, which was passed up by Onegesios' wife, and then he started to gallop towards his house, which was on the top of a small hill.
As the representatives of Rome were waiting, Priscos told the huns, that he wants to see Reka (attila's wife) , because he brought gifts to her.
Reka's house was built from wood. It was a bit different from the rest of the houses, the main holding beams were made such a way, that its ends were pointy and the whole house was beautifully constructed.
When Priscos entered the house, first he bowed to the queen (Reka), who was sitting on a soft seating. The floor was covered with rug made out of lambskin and fur. There were many workers, maids in the main room, as they all set on the ground, they were decorating hun clothes with colorful details.
Priscos stepped forward, bowed and gave the gift to the queen. She took a quick look, then she bowed back. No words were exchanged, and Priscos bowed one more time and walked out of the house.
When Priscos returned to the rest of the roman diplomats, there was a message from Attila.
The message said: All of you are invited for a dinner. The dinner will take place at 9 o' clock.
They (diplomats) were all present at the dinner at the given time.
As they walked into the tent where the dinner took place each of the diplomats got a cup with wine, so they could greet the king before they get seated.
The diplomats walked in, then each greeted Attila, then took a seat at the large table.
Attila was seated in the middle of the tent, on a top of a throne. Not far from the tables, in the back of the tent, there was Attila's bed, which was covered with all kinds of sheets, and the it was set up very familarly as the roman's bed were made.
The guests were seated on the the right side of Attila. After everyone was arranged and seated, Attila's "handyman" brought another cup in for Attila and then he greeted everyone and drank from the cup.
As the diplomats drank, the workers were standing behind it, and soon as they drank all the drink, they took the cup and brought another full cup.
Then the workers brought in more tables. There were full of meat and bread and sauce and each table were sized for 3-4 people.
To mention it, all the food were served on gold and silver plates and all the food were very good and tasty.
Attila only had a wood plate with some meat on. He was drinking wine from a wood cup and he barely ate and drink as he was watching everyone else.
His clothing was very simple, but very clean. His sword was a simple sword just as his stirrup, he didn't have any gold or jewelry with him.
After the first meal, everyone stood up and no one set until everyone drank for Attila.
After then, 2 szittya men showed up in the tent and they were telling some tales and poems to the dinner party. These tales and poems written by themselves the 2 szittya-men.
All the huns were listening with great interest for the 2 men, as they were telling about great battles and great stories. The young ones were amazed, and some of the old warriors cried as they were listening to the stories.
After the poems and stories, another szittya man entered the tent, who was telling some funny things, so this time everyone was laughing.
Attila never moved, his face never changed. He looked like he didn't even hear anything or notice anything from any of the events. When his youngest son Irnak entered the tent, he got off his throne, smiled at him and padded him in the back.
The diplomats noticed, that Attila loves his youngest the most, and meanwhile cared less for his other sons.
Priscos asked one of the huns, why is it, that Attila only likes his youngest, and not the others?
The hun looked around, and quietly answered in fluid latin :
- I can only tell you , if you give me your word, that you won't tell anyone.
Priscos replied:
- I'll give you my word, that I won't tell.
The hun warrior replied:
- The saman's told the future to Attila, that his people (the huns) will fall after his death, but his youngest son will make the huns proud again.

Not long after, Attila stood up, poured another cup of wine, greeted all the visitors, then he waived at the guests goodbye.

p.s. szittya (hungarian) means "Scythian"

[Dromikaites]

I'm watching from time to time the shows in Hungarian language of the Romanian state television (they're with Romanian subtitles ). I saw once part of a cartoon which I think was about a Hungarian legend. A very short Hungarian warroir defeated a huge Byzantine soldier in a wrestling match. It was like a Hungarian version of David and Goliath. Can you provide details?