So, what are your views?

[Last_Crusader]

Bavarian Noble, I should be most interested to hear the views on homosexuality you are too afraid to post in GD for fear of flaming. Fire away.

[Carousel]

Yes, but I'd like to issue a warning.

We are all civitates and I expect a high level of conduct from the participants of this conversation.

This is not a firing squad. Discuss fairly.

[Lord Rahl]

I'll give mine!

*wines and groaning from the Libs on TWC*

Basically in a nut shell...

Homosexuality is wrong. I don't agree with it and neither does my faith. I do not believe they should be able to marry and have the same benefits of a heterosexual couple. However, I feel that we all make mistakes, we all sin, and we are all people. Just because homosexuals like the members of their own sex (whether in some instances lesbians are hot ) doesn't mean they should be shunned from our communities. Oh, and it's gross. :laughing:

In a nut shell and much is left out so just ask questions.

[Søren]

I was going to post something similar to that which Lord Rahl has just posted.

I would like to put special emphasis on the fact that all sin, I don't consider homosexuality to be the greatest sin, but it is still a sin. In the view of the Bible and Jesus.

[Tom Paine]

So basically your view on the matter is formed by your faith? And I mean your faith alone. However, assuming you are Christian, that also means tha so many other things are sinful that it is actually a little scary, and also surely Jesus would have accepted homosexuals, given that he accepted a fornicator (prostitute)?

[Søren]

Many other things are sinful, you are correct. So...

There is a difference between accepting people and accepting their actions. If the Homo-sexual had repented, like the woman supposed to be a prostiute, then of course he would have accepted him/her.

[Tom Paine]

So they must repent their sexual orientation? Or is it just the actual sex? the quote from Leviticus suggests the latter; so a non-practicing homosexual is perfectly fine, am I right?

[Last_Crusader]

So they must repent their sexual orientation? Or is it just the actual sex? the quote from Leviticus suggests the latter; so a non-practicing homosexual is perfectly fine, am I right?

I believe it's still classified as impure thought, and thus sin.

A question. Is it a fair synopsis to say that you believe that homosexuality is wrong, but must be forgiven along with homosexuals?

[Tom Paine]

If you were talking to me (sorry if you weren't) then I don't even think its wrong. Simple as that.

[smack]

Sometimes I wish I knew the Bible better, especially things that are considered the words of Jesus. While I remember several passages dooming homosexuals to fiery hell, I don't recall Jesus ever saying: "Fags are Sinners because they are Fags", nor do I recall a single parable of his that promotes: 1. setting custom in stone, or otherwise failing to advance our customs in congruity with our understanding of both Nature, and Love for that of God in Everyone, 2. declining to accept people as they are, for who they are, 3. I don't remember the one about appreciating the value of 'Us' and 'Them', nor do I recall the one about 4. Living the Word of the holy texts when it conflicts with the Spirit.

I'm glad to hear some conservative viewpoints on the matter though. Keep going!

[OTZ]

If God created all living things, then where did homosexuals come from? I hardly doubt that something so infalliable as God Almighty could have slipped up so easily. I guess the cop-out answer is that man is falliable and chose the path of homosexuality...too bad religion wasn't based more on fact than excuses.

[Lord Rahl]

So you are saying God created homosexuality and then say that humans creating it is a cop-out answer? Why believe one when the other is so obvious? At least to me. God created all living things, yes. He DID NOT decide what we would do and does not force us to do anything either as well. God is our Father, we can create humans but we don't decide what they believe ultimately.

So they must repent their sexual orientation? Or is it just the actual sex? the quote from Leviticus suggests the latter; so a non-practicing homosexual is perfectly fine, am I right?

It is all sin. The Bible says it is a sin. A non-practicing homosexual may have sinful desires.

I believe it's still classified as impure thought, and thus sin. A question. Is it a fair synopsis to say that you believe that homosexuality is wrong, but must be forgiven along with homosexuals?

Right Last_Crusader. All sin must be forgiven but that does not mean that we must accept the sin. I accept that homosexuals are people with sin but I don't accept their sin as something I will go on without help.

[Justinian]

It is all sin. The Bible says it is a sin. A non-practicing homosexual may have sinful desires.

I just had a strange thought.

OK, the Bible says all sins are equally sinful, right? It also says a man's lust for a woman he isn't married to is a sin ... and it also says homosexuality is a sin.

Now, a non-practicing homosexual has sinful desires - but those desires aren't more sinful then a heterosexual's desires, and heterosexual sex outside of wedlock is just as bad as homosexual sex ...

So what does a homo do?

[Lord Rahl]

What does a homosexual do? I guess he/she would repent. It's all sin anyway so it doesn't matter what they do, just repent, ask for forgiveness.

[Tom Paine]

Wait; I wanted to hark back to desires being sinful. We cannot stop ourselves having these desires; why do we try to? This refers both to heterosexual and homosexual desires. They are uncontrolable, it is acting upon them that is controlable; so why should people repent for what they cannot control? Surely sin is a concious thing, not the unconcious desire.

[Epistolary Richard]

No, sins have been extended to both mental (mens rea) and the physical (actus reus) elements of an offence. The Old Testament is a lot more actus reus based that the New Testament, however even there for example you have commandments against coveting, which is solely a mental offence.

As for homosexuality in the Bible, I'm not quite sure of my passages. Was there something in Leviticus? And how about in the New Testament?
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[Tom Paine]

Can one control the mental sins though? No truly. So God punishes us for a sin that is, in fact, entirely out of our own control. Sins are mant to be concious choices am I right? Not the things God actually put into us....

[Epistolary Richard]

The control and development of our minds is the only way that we can become better people. If someone desires to commit a crime (and I am in no way equating homosexuality and criminality here), but resists it because he fears punishment by the authorities or judgment by his community, well, then it is better for the community that he resisted, but it does not make him a better person within himself.

Take racism for example, if we were all able to treat each other equally irrespective of race then it would be a good thing, but racism can never truly be extinguished until we not only treat each other equally but think of each other equally as well.
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[Tom Paine]

However, the desires are something he cannot control; that we can equate to homosxuality. He does not commit the act but cannot stop himself thinking about it. How can we resist thinking about something before thinking about it? And what is Christianity in favour of, a thought police? That is the thing: talking about thoughts as sins makes angels into a form of thought-police. You cannot control your thoughts properly, there is this thing called instinct. It is all about control of instinct, ie not actually acting on the thoughts.

[Epistolary Richard]

I think you have to distinguish between moral concepts which are there to help regulate society (and which therefore are incorporated in laws which are subsequently able to be enforced) and those concepts which are there in order to help us become better people.

Not all sins are appropriate to be actively enforced. The UK legal system has very few criminal offences that only require a mens rea element and that is for good reason.

And as people have said, if one commits a mental sin, one need only repent and ask forgiveness. Sometimes it is the identification of the thought as a sin rather than actually going out and punishing people which is the most important aspect. It is only by identifying where we have done or thought things that we wish we had not, that we are able to improve ourselves. Without identifying them, and without regret, we can never grow.
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