2nd Draft - Region specific Stats - line inf - FIRST FACTIONS DONE

[boche]

Well as i said i was going to provide a first draft of faction specific stats, and see what you guys think.

starting with the basic line infantry stats which are :

Accuracy: 45
Reloading skill:25
Amunition: 10
Chagre Bonus: 10
Melee attack: 8
Melee defense: 14
Moral: 9

I will start in using a simple guideline to tell me or us what stat the units should have, for example, having 3 categories such as Bad, Normal or Good, and giving each a number. as a demonstration for the acuraccy settings we would put say: Bad - 40, Normal -45, and Good -50.

the guides are: (Bad/Normal/Good)

Acuraccy: 40/45/50
Reloading skill: 20/25/30
Amunition: 8/10/12
Chagre Bonus: 8/10/12
Melee attack: 6/8/10
Melee defense: 12/14/16
Moral: 8/9/10

i will add or decrease these to match the countrys fighting doctrine,and basically for now its line infantry quality. ofcourse i will apreciate any input you guys can give me, especially for factions that i do not understand that well.

France Region

Accuracy +0
Reloading skill -5
Amunition +0
Charge Bonus +0
Melee attack +0
Melee defense +3
Moral +0

Frances infantry will be kept as CA put it as a more melee centered unit (Good melee defense). As Frances main military force is its artillery, their infantry is not the one of the best out there, yet competent. due to how famous french logistics is i find it apropriate to give them a "Good" amount of ammo

Sweden Region: (not done, awaiting info/input from you guys)

Accuracy
Reloading skill
Amunition
Chagre Bonus
Melee attack
Melee defense
Moral

Spain Region

Accuracy +0
Reloading skill +0
Amunition -3
Chagre Bonus +0
Melee attack +3
Melee defense +0
Moral + 3

Spains infantry has always been famous for its bravery on the battlefield (Good moral). This makes up for the "average" training methods and suplying spain offers its troops (Bad ammunition). Spains troops rely on charges towards the enemy to engage quickly in hand to hand, where spaniars excell (Good melee atack). Infantry has always been the core of Spains armed forces.

Ottoman empirenot done, awaiting info/input from you guys)

Accuracy
Reloading skill
Amunition
Chagre Bonus
Melee attack
Melee defense
Moral

England Region:

Accuracy +10
Reloading skill +5
Amunition +0
Chagre Bonus +0
Melee attack +0
Melee defense -3
Moral +0

Rely on high disciplined fire drills on the battlefield due to good training (Good accuracy and reload skill). Suffer from little melee defense as acustomed to fire exchanges and are not confortable if the disciplin is broken (Bad Melee defense). Britains infantry are the core of their army since its them that must deploy to their far away colonies or on fast expedicionary forces to europe.

Amsterdamnot done, awaiting info/input from you guys)

Accuracy
Reloading skill
Amunition
Chagre Bonus
Melee attack
Melee defense
Moral

Russia: -2 all accuracy/reloading skill/mellee atack and defense/moral stats due to number

Accuracy -12
Reloading skill -7
Amunition -3
Charge Bonus +3
Melee attack -2
Melee defense -2
Moral -2

Russia force as we all know is its number, which is the reason it concentrates on fielding poorly trained (Bad reloading) undersupplied ( bad ammo) and musket-savy men (bad accuracy). although that large mass of men does have an impact on the effect of a bayonet charge (good charge bonus). Russias troops are basically support troops that let russias elite cores, such as its arty and some cavalry do its job.

Prussia:

Accuracy +10
Reloading skill +5
Amunition +0
Chagre Bonus -3
Melee attack +0
Melee defense +0
Moral +3

Prussia infantry is doctrined in fire exchanges and well trained in reloadng drills (Good reloading). prefer to stay back and finish of the enemy through fire rather than steel (Bad melee attack). competent core units.

Poland-Lithuanianot done, awaiting info/input from you guys)

Accuracy
Reloading skill
Amunition
Chagre Bonus
Melee attack
Melee defense
Moral

Asutria:-2 stats due to number and quality

Accuracy -12
Reloading skill -2
Amunition -2
Charge Bonus -2
Melee attack -2
Melee defense -2
Moral -2

Austria fields a standard infantry, neither exceling noor poor, it uses great numbers in regiments like its eastern neighbour. austrias infantry is basically a support for austrias excelling light infantry and light cavalry to do its job.

Marathasnot done, awaiting info/input from you guys)

Accuracy
Reloading skill
Amunition
Chagre Bonus
Melee attack
Melee defense
Moral

USA?not done, awaiting info/input from you guys)
Should we count the USA as a major faction?

Well here is the first draft with some nations missing as i do not have the knowledge in my head now or never, so any help would be most accepted! pleace comment!

thanks!

[boche]

Thread OPEN!! post comments!

[Fedakyn]

This is a great thread - Highly appreciated I have a few disagreements, but one thing I like a lot is the subtly of this rubric I find that kind of refreshing actually.

anyway my thoughts :

France: French infantry were melee centric for sure, and under the Monarchy were known for two things Bayonet skill, and high morale, as members of arguable the greatest army in Europe they epected to win. French doctrine did not actually involve aiming though, at least as I recall.
so for me I see
Acc 42
Reload 25
Ammo: 12
charge: 10
MA: 10
MD: 14
M: 10

Sweden : Sweden in 1700 had the most disciplined and well trained army in Europe. Period. What they lacked was people to man it. For me I see a smaller unit size, so keep that in mind when I say...
Acc: 48
Reload: 28
Ammo: 12
Charge: 8
MA: 6
MD: 16
M:11 (high- yes- but this is the army that did not desert going half way to constantinople)

Spain: my thoughts, mainly based on my readings.
Acc: 45
Reload: 22
Ammo: 8
Charge 12
MA: 8
MD: 14
Morale: 10

Ottoman Empire: The ottomans were known for their vast armies more then anything else, so I see large unit size as imperative. They were also known for inaccurate firearms and lack of melee training. I see
Acc: 42
Reload: 25
Ammo: 8
charge: 8
MA: 6
MD: 14
Morale: 9

Britain: The British army ran more fire drills then anyone else, they clocked them and a regiment could only fight if it fired fast enough. they avoided charging as they thought it would hinder discipline I see:
Acc: 45
Reload: 30 (I know this is extreme but I think its right)
Ammo: 10
Charge: 8
MA: 8
MD: 12
Morale: 10

Ok I have to run - But more to follow. And my usual disclaimer when I do this kind of thing, these are simply my thoughts and designed to help. I am also noticing it looks like I am giving high morale a lot - these are the only 4 factions I would give it to though. And why not Prussia? Prussian armies were well trained but based on mass conscription. This gave them better morale than expected, but not the best- conscription rarely does. As for the British I debated that for a while. They were called the scum of the earth...but If you look at British armies they had more staying power in a fire-fight then anyone, I think they deserve it.

cheers

[Barristan Selmy]

The main problem with Ottoman infantry (im assuming you are talking about the Nizam-i-Cedid units) is that they are supposed to be from the late 18th century.

Small wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizam-%C4%B1_Cedid

[alpaca]

Hrm hoom thanks for the effort boche but I fear you have misunderstood the unit system that is being implemented; my current plan looks like this:

Units will not depend on the faction you play. They will solely be a function of the region and some army tradition values that I haven't fully worked out yet. The basic idea is to assign each region and each nation an abstracted army tradition that determines which units you can recruit. These army traditions will probably be split into some broad cultural groups so we will likely end up with something like the following:

- Firepower/Marksmanship, Melee, Drill, Numerical Advantage, Cavalry, Artillery and Mobility/Light Tactics for the Europeans and similar ilk for Indians (real Indians, not American ones) and Muslims

- Melee, Ranged, Gunpowder, Light and Mounted for Native Americans

Each region will have a combination of numerical values for each of these traditions and each unit type will have tradition requirements and infrastructure (read: building) requirements that will determine whether or not you can recruit it in that region.

To further complicate things your nation also has these tradition values and the region values will get a creep toward your national values. You will be able to influence the national values by researching special technologies and by the units you recruit (recruiting light infantry will increase your light tradition for example). The latter also applies to recruiting regions directly. We might add other things later on but implementing this is a lot of work already so we shall see.

Furthermore you should be aware that every regular brigade is regional, i.e. each unit you recruit (excepting mercenaries and ships) will bear a region name and unit type in the title. So you may or example end up with English Line Infantry focusing on Firepower and Drill, Scottish Line Infantry on Firepower alone and Irish Line Infantry being more focused on Melee combat because the English don't like them and use them as pinning units.

All units of a certain category should have the same stats, so what we primarily need to determine are what the unit types will be exactly, what stats they will have assigned and - the most work - which provinces and factions have which tradition values at the start.

I know the system sounds complicated but it's actually pretty simple conceptually - and easier to memorize because stats will depend on the unit type not on the nationality. As an interesting technical aside this system probably won't increase unit numbers much more than doing faction-specific copies of a lot of units

[boche]

you know i did make this with intention of them being regional right? jeje

i do understand that you are making the AOR system and did talk with l33t bout it beforehand to make sure. i made these stats to be implemented if accepeted the the units of said home regions only i used the faction names instead, its my fault i did not specify. i think we are aiming to do the same thing if i understand correctly

[alpaca]

you know i did make this with intention of them being regional right? jeje

i do understand that you are making the AOR system and did talk with l33t bout it beforehand to make sure. i made these stats to be implemented if accepeted the the units of said home regions only i used the faction names instead, its my fault i did not specify. i think we are aiming to do the same thing if i understand correctly

Alright, I misunderstood it then. However you're writing things like French Line gets more ammo because of the famous French logistics. Units with a lot of ammo will fit into the above system by having high Firepower and high Light tactics. What's important to me is that you understand that the unit stats are a function of the army tradition values - the actual recruiting faction is almost completely irrelevant except for some unique units like royal guards and such.

[Tancredii]

British Infantry weren't afraid to mix it up as well as volley. King Louis XIV warned Marshal Villeroi of "dangerous" red coated soldiers in 6th May 1706. Why? Because the deployment of British infantry had heralded points of attack in previos battles. Malborough relied heavily on British troops to assault the enemy. Assault means close with and take ground from not exchange fire at a distance and mince off when the enemy charge you as some of the stats would suggest. Malborough was the foremost general of the early part of the period we are dealing with and he wouldn't have used British troops had more reliable assault troops been available.

If we look at battle of Ramillies British units were engaged in very close quarter fighting with well prepared French troops. This pulled French attention to this area and when Orkney was ordered to not press home his assaults (having fixed the French) he almost had to be dragged away. He recognised that the British troops had made gains and were wearing the French down. Is this the reaction of troops who brick themselves when within spitting distance of an enemy? 'fraid not. This is the reaction of troops well enough motivated to endure a large number of casualties to get amongst their enemy and rip the life out of them and disciplined to stay there without breaking.

I am unclear what historical proof people have that British troops wilted when engaged hand to hand? So am intereested in some references for me to do some further reading.

The comments on French logistics refer to the previous 50 years to our time frame not the period of ETW. Le Tellier and Louvois were long dead and with them most of the logistical advantages they brought.

[boche]

Alright, I misunderstood it then. However you're writing things like French Line gets more ammo because of the famous French logistics. Units with a lot of ammo will fit into the above system by having high Firepower and high Light tactics. What's important to me is that you understand that the unit stats are a function of the army tradition values - the actual recruiting faction is almost completely irrelevant except for some unique units like royal guards and such.

ye ok i get you, so should i scrap ammo bonuses/losses for all units?

[l33tl4m3r]

**PLEASE READ THIS POST**

Figured I'd give you folks who want to contribute some guidlines for what I will need when I start building the full tables to take advantage of the new scripting Alpaca has been working so hard on.

First, here is the list of regions;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

acadia
afghanistan
ahmadnagar
algiers
algonquin_territory
alsace
anatolia
arkhangelsk
armenia
astrakhan
austria
azerbaijan
bahamas
baluchistan
bashkira
bavaria
belarus
bengal
berar
bijapur
bohemia
bosnia
bulgaria
carnatica
carolinas
ceylon
chechenya-dagestan
cherokee_territory
corsica
courland
crimea
croatia
cuba
curacao
denmark
don_voisko
dutch_guyana
egypt
england
estonia_and_livonia
finland
flanders
florida
france
french_guyana
galicia
genoa
georgia
georgia_usa
gibraltar
great_plains
greece
guatemala
gujarat
hannover
hindustan
hispaniola
hungary
huron_territory
hyderabad
iceland
ingria
ireland
iroquois_territory
jamaica
kaintuck_territory
karelia
kashmir
komi
labrador
leeward_islands
lithuania
lower_louisiana
maine
malabar
malta
malwa
maryland
mesopotamia
michigan_territory
milan
moldavia
morea
morocco
muscovy
mysore
naples
netherlands
new_andalusia
new_england
new_france
new_grenada
new_mexico
new_spain
new_york
newfoundland
northwest_territories
norway
ontario
orissa
palestine
panama
pennsylvania
persia
poland
portugal
prussia
punjab
rajpootana
rhineland
rumelia
ruperts_land
sardinia
savoy
saxony
scotland
serbia
silesia
sindh
spain
sweden
syria
tatariya
tejas
the_papal_states
transylvania
trinidad_tobago
tripoli
tunis
ukraine
upper_louisiana
venice
virginia
west_pommerania
west_prussia
windward_islands
wurttemberg

Now, bonuses need to be provided for the regions to be added to the base units stats.

Base Line Infantry
Accuracy: 45
Reloading skill:25
Amunition: 10
Chagre Bonus: 10
Melee attack: 8
Melee defense: 11
Moral: 9

So, say Prussia is known for reloading drills and faster firing -- the region bonus entry would look like this;

Prussia
Accuracy: +0
Reloading skill: +5
Amunition: +0
Charge Bonus: +0
Melee attack: +0
Melee defense: +0
Moral: +0

Say units from England were known for better accuracy and morale;

England
Accuracy: +5
Reloading skill: +0
Amunition: +0
Charge Bonus: +0
Melee attack: +0
Melee defense: +0
Moral: +1

---

Not all regions need to give bonuses, not all regions need to give large bonuses, not all regions need to give multiple bonuses -- use your imagination.

Start at the top of the region list and work your way down it for line infantry; once line infantry is done we'll move on to cavalry, then artillery.

[boche]

British Infantry weren't afraid to mix it up as well as volley. King Louis XIV warned Marshal Villeroi of "dangerous" red coated soldiers in 6th May 1706. Why? Because the deployment of British infantry had heralded points of attack in previos battles. Malborough relied heavily on British troops to assault the enemy. Assault means close with and take ground from not exchange fire at a distance and mince off when the enemy charge you as some of the stats would suggest. Malborough was the foremost general of the early part of the period we are dealing with and he wouldn't have used British troops had more reliable assault troops been available.

If we look at battle of Ramillies British units were engaged in very close quarter fighting with well prepared French troops. This pulled French attention to this area and when Orkney was ordered to not press home his assaults (having fixed the French) he almost had to be dragged away. He recognised that the British troops had made gains and were wearing the French down. Is this the reaction of troops who brick themselves when within spitting distance of an enemy? 'fraid not. This is the reaction of troops well enough motivated to endure a large number of casualties to get amongst their enemy and rip the life out of them and disciplined to stay there without breaking.

I am unclear what historical proof people have that British troops wilted when engaged hand to hand? So am intereested in some references for me to do some further reading.

The comments on French logistics refer to the previous 50 years to our time frame not the period of ETW. Le Tellier and Louvois were long dead and with them most of the logistical advantages they brought.

jeje well im sure there were instances where they fought well in melee but i think we have to make a compromise here and give them something "bad" like each other line, still british line is strong with the stats i gave it and i think that having melee down is ok, do you think i should make "melee attack" bad instead of "defense" (which would make it equal to prussian line)??

[boche]

Figurd I'd give you folks who want to contribute some guidlines for what I will need when I start building the full tables to take advantage of the new scripting Alpaca has been working so hard on.

First, here is the list of regions;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

acadia
afghanistan
ahmadnagar
algiers
algonquin_territory
alsace
anatolia
arkhangelsk
armenia
astrakhan
austria
azerbaijan
bahamas
baluchistan
bashkira
bavaria
belarus
bengal
berar
bijapur
bohemia
bosnia
bulgaria
carnatica
carolinas
ceylon
chechenya-dagestan
cherokee_territory
corsica
courland
crimea
croatia
cuba
curacao
denmark
don_voisko
dutch_guyana
egypt
england
estonia_and_livonia
finland
flanders
florida
france
french_guyana
galicia
genoa
georgia
georgia_usa
gibraltar
great_plains
greece
guatemala
gujarat
hannover
hindustan
hispaniola
hungary
huron_territory
hyderabad
iceland
ingria
ireland
iroquois_territory
jamaica
kaintuck_territory
karelia
kashmir
komi
labrador
leeward_islands
lithuania
lower_louisiana
maine
malabar
malta
malwa
maryland
mesopotamia
michigan_territory
milan
moldavia
morea
morocco
muscovy
mysore
naples
netherlands
new_andalusia
new_england
new_france
new_grenada
new_mexico
new_spain
new_york
newfoundland
northwest_territories
norway
ontario
orissa
palestine
panama
pennsylvania
persia
poland
portugal
prussia
punjab
rajpootana
rhineland
rumelia
ruperts_land
sardinia
savoy
saxony
scotland
serbia
silesia
sindh
spain
sweden
syria
tatariya
tejas
the_papal_states
transylvania
trinidad_tobago
tripoli
tunis
ukraine
upper_louisiana
venice
virginia
west_pommerania
west_prussia
windward_islands
wurttemberg

Now, bonuses need to be provided for the regions to be added to the base units stats.

Base Line Infantry
Accuracy: 45
Reloading skill:25
Amunition: 10
Chagre Bonus: 10
Melee attack: 8
Melee defense: 11
Moral: 9

So, say Prussia is known for reloading drills and faster firing -- the region bonus entry would look like this;

Prussia
Accuracy: +0
Reloading skill: +5
Amunition: +0
Charge Bonus: +0
Melee attack: +0
Melee defense: +0
Moral: +0

Say units from England were known for better accuracy and morale;

England
Accuracy: +5
Reloading skill: +0
Amunition: +0
Charge Bonus: +0
Melee attack: +0
Melee defense: +0
Moral: +1

---

Not all regions need to give bonuses, not all regions need to give large bonuses, not all regions need to give multiple bonuses -- use your imagination.

Start at the top of the region list and work your way down it for line infantry; once line infantry is done we'll move on to cavalry, then artillery.

ah right, a good system, i did not mean all these stats to be available in all regions ofcourse, but homeones mainly eg madrid, brandenbourg, london etc. and i think the region bonus stat works well with the Bad/norma/good guideline, since these are just -3/+0/+3 (mostly) from basic stats

[l33tl4m3r]

ah right, a good system, i did not mean all these stats to be available in all regions ofcourse, but homeones mainly eg madrid, brandenbourg, london etc. and i think the region bonus stat works well with the Bad/norma/good guideline, since these are just -3/+0/+3 (mostly) from basic stats

A bit more info;

While some regions will have unadjusted line infantry, regions that do have adjusted stats will be adjusted in the units stats table, so these region bonuses will be part of the unit's base stats.

The line infantry with higher base stats will be available to any faction that holds the region they are named after -- but only in that region.

These base values will then be adjusted again based on what portion of the military tech tree you research.

So while line infantry from the region Prussia will have a higher base reload, if you research the melee tech line you will have Prussia line with higher base reload from their region and tech augmented melee abilities.

[boche]

ye ok, so wait let me get this straight, cos i think i already know what you guys a doing.

say we have a region, france with its own region based recruitable "French line infantry". Say France has a bonus of +3 melee defense, the unit will be recruited with that bonus. obviously if we change to say prussias region we will get a different set of bonuses for the "prussian line infantry". I get that. then there the tech you research, say firepower or melee, which will add onto the stats of your units in your factions. say you tech for melee, your "prussian line" will have its region based reloading bonus + the tech tree bonus melee right?

sure i understood what im jsut trying to do is figure out and put out there some pre-alpha bonuses for each regions line infantry (for the moment)

[l33tl4m3r]

ye ok, so wait let me get this straight, cos i think i already know what you guys a doing.

say we have a region, france with its own region based recruitable "French line infantry". Say France has a bonus of +3 melee defense, the unit will be recruited with that bonus. obviously if we change to say prussias region we will get a different set of bonuses for the "prussian line infantry". I get that. then there the tech you research, say firepower or melee, which will add onto the stats of your units in your factions. say you tech for melee, your "prussian line" will have its region based reloading bonus + the tech tree bonus melee right?

sure i understood what im jsut trying to do is figure out and put out there some pre-alpha bonuses for each regions line infantry (for the moment)

You got it.

Cut out the base stats for your units in the first post and just give it to me in the +/- format (with the region name) from above!

[boche]

You got it.

Cut out the base stats for your units in the first post and just give it to me in the +/- format (with the region name) from above!

roger roger, ill get on it

[alpaca]

ye ok, so wait let me get this straight, cos i think i already know what you guys a doing.

say we have a region, france with its own region based recruitable "French line infantry". Say France has a bonus of +3 melee defense, the unit will be recruited with that bonus. obviously if we change to say prussias region we will get a different set of bonuses for the "prussian line infantry". I get that. then there the tech you research, say firepower or melee, which will add onto the stats of your units in your factions. say you tech for melee, your "prussian line" will have its region based reloading bonus + the tech tree bonus melee right?

sure i understood what im jsut trying to do is figure out and put out there some pre-alpha bonuses for each regions line infantry (for the moment)

Actually I would like to keep the regional bonuses out of the equation and handle them via high initial tradition values in certain areas. So Prussia for example would get a lot of drill. For now you can just use them as regional stat bonuses though, it doesn't really matter. But in the end, if I have my say, they will work inside the tradition-based system.

[boche]

dont you get the same product at the end with the bonus and tradition system?

[alpaca]

dont you get the same product at the end with the bonus and tradition system?

No because the traditions can change over the course of the game while the bonuses can not.

[boche]

No because the traditions can change over the course of the game while the bonuses can not.

ah right, so traditions are developing. those are through techs right?

couldnt they add to the bonuses? say you already have the tradition as a nation of good melee fighters. you can tech it to become even better neglecting fire drills and accuracy say, or you could develop fire drills and accuracy and have a more balanced army