legio lanciarii

**midnite** · August 27, 2009, 12:16 PM

Legio Lanciarii
I am trying to make them similar to the ones in IBRR. They will be added to the WRE roster. I am currently studying the model you see on the loading screen of IB2. My questions to the fans of IBRR and IB2.

should they be heavily armored?
what type of armor?
what color are the helmut tufts? -- right now they are red and yellow -- would white be fine?
should they be dedicated spearmen?

give us your facts and opinions. Post some pics if you want.

**midnite** · August 27, 2009, 10:49 PM

some latest pics -- wip

They are similar to the IBRR units. Not sure if the armor should all be the same or not

**Silent Gent~** · August 28, 2009, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by midnite

Legio Lanciarii
I am trying to make them similar to the ones in IBRR. They will be added to the WRE roster. I am currently studying the model you see on the loading screen of IB2. My questions to the fans of IBRR and IB2.

should they be heavily armored?
what type of armor?
what color are the helmut tufts? -- right now they are red and yellow -- would white be fine?
should they be dedicated spearmen?

give us your facts and opinions. Post some pics if you want.

Hello Midnight!

They should have heavy armour, and they should be of heavy mail variety and some could have Lorica squamata. Any of the colors would be acceptable for the tufts, with red and white being excellent choices along with black.

**julianus heraclius** · August 28, 2009, 08:25 AM

I think we need to determine, what in fact were Legio Lanciarii by this time. Initially, in the late 3rd and into the 4th Century they were considered to be light skirmishers armed with a lancea, which was a light spear, and not a long thrusting spear. It seems that by the mid to late 4th Century they may have become guard units. In fact, one of the original field legios ewas the Legio Lanciarii. I would assume then by this period (early 5th Century) they would probably be heavily armed troops, but not necessarily armed with a long thrusting spear. In IJ, I use the term legio hastati to represent legionaries armed with a long thrusting spear.

**midnite** · August 28, 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Silent Gent~

Hello Midnight!

They should have heavy armour, and they should be of heavy mail variety and some could have Lorica squamata. Any of the colors would be acceptable for the tufts, with red and white being excellent choices along with black.

Thanks for the response!

I am going to look into it.

**midnite** · August 28, 2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by julianus heraclius

I think we need to determine, what in fact were Legio Lanciarii by this time. Initially, in the late 3rd and into the 4th Century they were considered to be light skirmishers armed with a lancea, which was a light spear, and not a long thrusting spear. It seems that by the mid to late 4th Century they may have become guard units. In fact, one of the original field legios ewas the Legio Lanciarii. I would assume then by this period (early 5th Century) they would probably be heavily armed troops, but not necessarily armed with a long thrusting spear. In IJ, I use the term legio hastati to represent legionaries armed with a long thrusting spear.

Thanks for responding JH! Possibly make the lanciarii heavily armored with swords and javelins?
let me look at a second version.

**AnthoniusII** · August 28, 2009, 04:26 PM

I am not sure if Legio lancarii and simple Lancarii were one and the same unit...
But emperor Mauricius changed the infantry's spears with longer ones (3m) because their previus ones were to short to help them to stand against cavalry charges...
Conclusion before Mauricius reform Lancarii had 2m short spears ...
According to eastern armies lancarii became infantry auxilias defending secondary places...
Their armors were from none to hard leather breast plates like the one that follows.

I repeat that i am not sure if legio lancarii were the same with simple lancarii..One thing is certain they had short spears!

**julianus heraclius** · August 28, 2009, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by AnthoniusII

I am not sure if Legio lancarii and simple Lancarii were one and the same unit...
But emperor Mauricius changed the infantry's spears with longer ones (3m) because their previus ones were to short to help them to stand against cavalry charges...
Conclusion before Mauricius reform Lancarii had 2m short spears ...
According to eastern armies lancarii became infantry auxilias defending secondary places...
Their armors were from none to hard leather breast plates like the one that follows.

I repeat that i am not sure if legio lancarii were the same with simple lancarii..One thing is certain they had short spears!

We are talking western roman army here though, but your comments are interesting. I think what most people don't realise is that the title description of a legio unit may have lost any relevance by the late 4th, early 5th century and that most legionaries were armed with a form of throwing spear, thrusting spear and sword. So the title legio lanciarii by this time may have not reflected anything about how the unit was armed.

There is some argument as to whether roman troops had abandoned any form of HTW and being armed with lighter throwing weapons such as the verutum and of course darts, lancea and spatha.

Cheers

**Silent Gent~** · August 28, 2009, 11:08 PM

Here is some excellent research that the Late Roman Legio Lanciarii served as escorts for Emperors and had a special status as well:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Lanciarii.html

**midnite** · August 29, 2009, 01:00 AM

Different version of the legio lanciarii -- with breast plates and Lorica squamata
Possibly leave the units with a mix of armor, and 6 foot spears instead of the 3 meter spears.

**julianus heraclius** · August 29, 2009, 01:50 AM

I honsetly wouldn't be calling the unit a legio lanciarii, unless that is the title of a specific legio ala Legio Lanciarii Seniores. As i stated earlier, a lanciarii in the 3rd/4th century was most likely a skirmishing type. So any reference to a "lanciarii" as a specific troop type should probably be a lightly armed skirmisher.

Any heavily armed legio had a generic title of comitatensis or palatinae. So these units would have had some form of armour and armed with shield, throwing weapon, spear and spatha. I would not be using "legio lanciarii" as a generic title for a heavily armed legio IMHO.

Cheers

**midnite** · August 29, 2009, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by julianus heraclius

I honsetly wouldn't be calling the unit a legio lanciarii, unless that is the title of a specific legio ala Legio Lanciarii Seniores. As i stated earlier, a lanciarii in the 3rd/4th century was most likely a skirmishing type. So any reference to a "lanciarii" as a specific troop type should probably be a lightly armed skirmisher.

Any heavily armed legio had a generic title of comitatensis or palatinae. So these units would have had some form of armour and armed with shield, throwing weapon, spear and spatha. I would not be using "legio lanciarii" as a generic title for a heavily armed legio IMHO.

Cheers

I am sure your opinion is correct.

Ramon has a generic unit labeled as legio lanciarii in IBRR armed with a lance and javelins. That is where my idea is coming from.

picture from IBRR

This unit is named as Legio Lanciarii.

**julianus heraclius** · August 29, 2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by midnite

I am sure your opinion is correct.

Ramon has a generic unit labeled as legio lanciarii in IBRR armed with a lance and javelins. That is where my idea is coming from.

picture from IBRR

This unit is named as Legio Lanciarii.

I know this unit. It is a left over from the Vanilla BI version, but again, as I said "legio lanciarii" by this time relected more a unit title than a unit type.

Cheers

**~~Arch-hereticK~~** · September 07, 2009, 11:59 AM

Truly beautiful, good work guys.

**char** · September 07, 2009, 12:52 PM

I think the point of late Roman infantry was to act as a rally point for cav. There are many examples of roman infantry performing badly during the last decades of the empire although this mainly comes from later eastern sources commenting on justinians wars.

I think these troops were medium infantry, padded jacket, mail armour and helmet(made from two seperate peices of metal). They carried a light throwing javelin(could be used to defend against cav) and long sword.

There role was to hold ground and act as a rally point for cav, not to defeat medium/heavy infantry.

late roman heavy infantry might be equipped with mail or lamellar or a combination of both.

late roman infantry were better trained and displined than there rivals, but not as well trained as imperial roman troops.

heavy/medium and light infantry would all carry a shield.

I think your units look the part, mate.

**Razor** · September 09, 2009, 04:55 PM

Hi, just stopping by. I agree with julianus heraclius here. The name Legio Lanciarii would result in a difference that probably wasn't even existent. Every infantry unit in a heavy/medium infantry role had a spear (lancea) and a sword as secondary weapon.

**Julianus Flavius** · September 16, 2009, 09:43 PM

Hi Midnite long time no see. Great models but I agree with Heracleus. Look at the unit tree for IJ for Barbarian Invasion to see how they should be represented.

**TheSpaniard1521** · September 23, 2012, 03:00 PM

Is it possible to do a Legio Lanciarii, with a Lorica Hamata, and on top of that they have a silver Lorica Musculata, and the sleeves come to about the elbows, and they have a red long sleeve tunic, with pants, boots, Silver Greaves, a red round shield, with a golden Chi Rho in the center, and they have two Pilla, A Spatha, and a helmet with a red crest at the top, and maybe if you play in the night, or a cold map they wear a cloak. I would love to see that.