Russia unlikely to sign border treaties with Estonia

[Siena72]

Russia unlikely to sign border treaties with Estonia

By TBT staff

MOSCOW - The Russian Foreign Ministry on Wednesday voiced its dissatisfaction with the preamble added to the Estonian-Russian border treaties by Estonia’s Parliament, saying this was making it impossible to submit the treaties to the Russian Federal Assembly for ratification.

"In the light of the position that the Estonian parliament has assumed, submitting the said treaties to the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation for ratification has become impossible," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a press release.

As the Russian Foreign Ministry said, the text of the ratification law passed by the Estonian MPs contains "unacceptable clauses tying the ratification of the said treaties to Estonia's internal documents, which do not correspond to objective reality, create a false context for interpreting and implementing the provisions of these treaties and thus make the lengthy work preceding their signature pointless."

The Estonian parliament at its extraordinary session on Monday ratified the treaties on the land border and sea border with Russia signed in Moscow on May 18. Acting on a proposal from five parliamentary factions, lawmakers added to the bill a preamble saying that Parliament ratifies the border treaties proceeding from legal continuity of the Republic of Estonia proclaimed on Feb. 24, 1918 as stated in the Constitution, the Aug. 20, 1991 resolution of the Supreme Council on Estonia's independent statehood and the Oct. 7, 1992 declaration of the parliament on the restoration of constitutional order.

So basically - Estonians agreed with current borders with Russia, but insisted to mention their pre-war statehood.
And this scared Russia. Russia does not want to admit that Soviet Union occupied Baltic states - and this leads to unability to face any historical information about pre-war Baltic states.
It seems that the only way that Russia would be happy - if Estonia would say that it never existed before

[Dromikaites]

Yeah, Russia still can't face it's communist past.

[Siena72]

Yeah, Russia still can't face it's communist past.

not only that - Russia is turning into agressive and manipulating state.
Look at this:

Russia dissatisfied with preamble to border treaties

By TBT staff

MOSCOW - Russia’s Foreign Ministry voiced dissatisfaction with the preamble added by Estonia’s Parliament to the border treaty with Russia.

"The Russian side warned its Estonian partners that any attempts to add trend-determined assessments of events that happened in the Baltic countries in the 1930s and 1940s to our modern bilateral relations are fraught with complicating the process of the border treaties' ratification by the Federal Assembly," a ministry spokesman was quoted by Interfax as saying, the Baltic News Service reported.

"To our regret, we have to acknowledge that the authorities in Tallinn have not listened to our arguments and consequently have assumed responsibility for the future of the border treaties," the spokesman said.

Russia tries to portray it as Estonia's territoric pretensions, but what in fact they want to do - is force Estonia to not mention the previous treaties - which Soviet Union violated by occupying Baltic states.
Russia is ashamed of it - but instead of apologising - they want to force Estonia not to mention it.

this is what Estonians actually did to deserve this:

Estonian Parliament ratifies border treaty with Russia

By TBT staff

TALLINN - At its extraordinary session on Monday, Parliament ratified the treaties on the land border and sea border with Russia that were signed in Moscow on May 18.

The ratification bill was passed with votes 78 to four with no abstentions.

The borderline set out by the land border treaty is virtually the same as the border between the Estonian SSR and Russia during the decades of Soviet rule, which since 1991 serves as the de facto border between the countries.

Now that the border has become official, Estonia has lost about 5 percent of its prewar territory as set out in the Tartu Peace Treaty of 1920. Thus, on a proposal from five parliamentary factions, lawmakers added a preamble to the treaties saying that in ratifying the treaties Parliament keeps in mind that the treaty on the state border partly changes in agreement with Article 122 of the Estonian Constitution the boundary line as fixed in the Tartu Peace Treaty concluded between Estonia and Russia in 1920 but does not affect the rest of the peace treaty or predetermine future handling of other bilateral issues not related to the border treaties.

Foreign Minister Urmas Paet said that in creating the preamble Parliament wanted to place the two agreements that were technical by their nature into the general context of Estonia's statehood and foreign policy.

"At the same time, the Riigikogu has created no additional conditions or anything else here that could be treated as reservations or influencing of the content of the treaties," the minister said.

So Estonians (small small country) gave up 5% of their territory to the Russians (do I have to remind the size of their territory?), and Russians are not happy with the mention previous treaties?

Please Don't Double-Post, Use the Edit Feature. Fixed. -Ardeur

[wilpuri]

Heh, rather typical. Russia claims that it is not a successor of the USSR, so why would the inclusion of pre-war treaties bother anyone?

[Siena72]

Heh, rather typical. Russia claims that it is not a successor of the USSR, so why would the inclusion of pre-war treaties bother anyone?

I think that Russia claims that IT IS a successor of USSR - so it should respect those treaties.
It is a typical Russia - in that it does not admit the truth.

[wilpuri]

I think that Russia claims that IT IS a successor of USSR - so it should respect those treaties.
It is a typical Russia - in that it does not admit the truth.

Well then there is some contradiction here, for I've heard Putin claim that Russia cannot be held accountable for the crimes of the USSR as it is not its successor... So it is or isn't? Border treaties signed with USSR are valid, because Russia is the successor state, but she cannot be held accountable for the crimes of the USSR, as She is not its successor?

Interesting.

[Spetsnaz]

Оh, what i see, a meeting of anti russian members

[wilpuri]

Оh, what i see, a meeting of anti russian members

How about you actually say something meaningful? Perhaps you are unable to defend the actions of the Russian government, and so you simply dismiss the issue at hand by calling us Anti-Russian, which I, at least, am not?

[Mr.Flint]

Heh i see no point for anyone to defend the actions of the russian goverment, since its Estonia who should explain why they glorify their SS veterans....

[wilpuri]

Heh i see no point for anyone to defend the actions of the russian goverment, since its Estonia who should explain why they glorify their SS veterans....

And why shouldn't they? The Estonians fought for Estonia, including the Estonian SS, who did not swear allegiance to Hitler. People just make a big fuss about the fact that they have SS infront of their name.

Remember, Estonia did not have an army after they were annexed by USSR, Estonians were recruited by both Soviets and Germans and they hated both. However, USSR was for them the bigger of two evils as far as Estonia was concerned. Estonia has a sparkling clean slate compared to both USSR and Nazi Germany. They suffered immensely during the war and its aftermath. Now you try to say they aren't allowed to remember those who fought to prevent that suffering?

[Dromikaites]

Оh, what i see, a meeting of anti russian members

Don't you miss something? Like the reason why this thread exists? Russia is refusing to sign the treaty with Estonia. And it's not anti-Russian, it's anti-Russia's foreign policy.

[RusskiSoldat]

Оh, what i see, a meeting of anti russian members

To be fair, only two people in this thread are heavily anti Russian for whatever ******** reason.

[Mr.Flint]

Estonian SS Legion did swear allegiance to Hitler, and what about all those innocent people who suffered from the Estonian Legion? They did enough to make that "SS" to be part of them.
and i really dont care who was the bigger enemy, documents show that all foreign SS units were involved in Nazi atrocities, for me all SS vets are criminals that should be in prison, they did enough for that.

[Perkele]

Regarding the Estonian-SS forces, to quote someone I don't remember:
"When there's devil to the right and devil to the left, how do you walk the line?"

[Hiroki]

To be fair, only two people in this thread are heavily anti Russian for whatever ******** reason.

For the same "********" reason you and the other Russians on this site are so anti-American perhaps?

Anyway, about the Estonian SS, they were still peoples family, and many of the SS sure as hell hated to commit those atrocities, but they were ordered to, now that doesn't make it right, but you sure as hell can't tell their families not to mourn them, that's just cold.

[wilpuri]

Carousel has done everyone the service of removing the offending statement. No point in immortalizing it in Quote form. -Ardeur

If I was still a mod, I would fry you. However, I think this little beauty does deserve some degree of punishment. Not only is it a false statement, it is also rather offensive.

Estonian SS Legion did swear allegiance to Hitler, and what about all those innocent people who suffered from the Estonian Legion? They did enough to make that "SS" to be part of them.
and i really dont care who was the bigger enemy, documents show that all foreign SS units were involved in Nazi atrocities, for me all SS vets are criminals that should be in prison, they did enough for that.

I'm not sure they did, in fact I'm quite sure I remember reading that they didn't. And to think all Waffen SS units committed atrocities is false, they didn't.

Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works. The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS. The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.

http://www.feldgrau.com/ss.html

[Gubbins]

If I was still a mod, I would fry you. However, I think this little beauty does deserve some degree of punishment. Not only is it a false statement, it is also rather offensive.

Estonia a little too close to Finnland for comfort?

[wilpuri]

Estonia a little too close to Finnland for comfort?

No, Estonia is fine, its the Eastern neighbour that I wouldn't mind moving behind the Urals.... :wink:
But I like Estonia and Estonians and besides, your comment was way out of line.

[Gubbins]

Why is that? You cannot deny that in the grand scheme this is stunningly unimportant.

[Dromikaites]

Why is that? You cannot deny that in the grand scheme this is stunningly unimportant.

Don't bet your life on it! Russian parliament's refusal to sign the treaty and other comments made by president Putin on several occasions make the rest of the world think the Russian politicians haven't yet understood how behave on the international arena. And Russia is still doing funny things militarily, not only in the diplomatic arena: remember the Russian troops showing up in Kosovo's capital Pristina unexpected and uninvited? Just a few days after that a Russian air convoy headed for Pristina violated the air space of Romania. The Romanian fighters scrambled to intercept and tried everything to make the Russian planes turn back except shooting them down. Now what if some angry pilot would have fired at those Antonovs? Or if an AA battery commander would have launched his missiles? I'm sure this would not have resulted in a war between Russia and Romania since Romania had all the right to defend its airspace. But it would have caused a major incident nevertheless, at a cost of the lives of some hundreds of Russian soldiers...

And since we speak about violating airspace, the fun the Russian pilots were having in flying over the Baltic states had as direct consequence bringing in the NATO fighters, which have now permanent bases there. Smart move for Russia, very smart indeed!

It is such a pitty that a country full of resources and with a lot of brilliant and high-educated people like Russia still behaves like in the Cold-War era instead of focusing internally and bettering the lives of its own citizens.