Above is a link to some info on Massive infantry columns. These combat formations are not simulated in ETW, I wonder if people think it would be a cool feature, I guess in NTW you would combine several units into a column and get some bonuses for attacking that way.
Certainly in Sharpe's novels they were an exciting element to the described battles, though perhaps somewhat romanticized.
According to this article the French General Macdonald used one of 8000 troops!
Tactically the French column attacks were underwhelming,getting shot to bits.It evidently was their way of getting (later) less reliable troops into play ie the sense of security en mass,but ironically it was often the rear that disintegrated first (not occupied fighting,frightened of what the front was finding itself in the thick of.....). A formation only for the desperate,it would appear.
Last edited by Husayn Bayqara; August 25, 2009 at 07:29 PM.
The French used "levee en mass" which means lots of conscipts and little time to train (also in the early years of the revolution they got attacked by every monarch). But France in those days had one of the lager populations in Europe and more than enough cannonfodder. So they introduced the total war concept with levee en mass and they developed the column to counter the lack of training. Being close to each other gives indeed a moral boast, it impresses the enemy, presents a narrow front to the enemy etc. In the beginning of the reign of Napoleon the columns seemed to be unstopable but that was mainly the result of training for the opposing forces. The rule was, they discovered, shoot 4 volley's in a minute and you cause enough carnage and disrupt the column enough to rout it. And indeed the ones in the back routed first cuz they dont get pushed forward and can run away from the enemy. Something thats much harder for the front rows.
Democracy is like two wolves and one lamb choosing what to eat tonight!!!
"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards... Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain".
You can order you troops into a column only four men wide in E:TW so I'm sure this feature will be incorporated. As for whether the AI would use it we'd have to wait and see.
im sure there will be a group formationfor column. you would need at least 3 or 4 units, as one unit will never make it. the units in column will get a special morale bonus or so, and will probably reduce the morale of enemies near it. several units ran away historically when faced with a coulumn. you would either need fast firing troops like brits to defeat it, or to position yoyur units into a sort of arc of fire with flanking and frontal fire, with artillery support. it should be a battle winner if used correctly, because it worked well so many times against other armies. only the british with their suprerior training, there morale, and their 4+ rounds a minute platoon volley reload speed were able to stop a column.
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"Peccavi" or "I have sinned"
Message from British General Charles Napier to the Governor General of India, to inform him of his capture of Sindh, (I Have sinned/Sindh).
Columns were almost never used in the time of ETW. It was known as the time of linear formations so I am glad CA left out a Column formation. Of course Squares were almost never used either. But yes Column formations need to be in NTW. They were used frequently during the Revolutionary battles and their frequency decreased quite a bit during the early years of Napoleon's reign but were used more often as the ongoing wars decreased the quality of his soldiers and leadership casualties became harder to replace. Moving in a Line into an attack without loosing all order takes some skill.
It was doctrine to advance quickly in Column and normally deploy into Line before approaching small arms range with the option to remain in Column and continue to advance if the enemy Line was wavering. It proved difficult to pull off the change in formation however and timing was very important. Many times if the forward momentum of the Column was stopped in order to form Lines the cohesion of the formation would break down and the attack would fail. It was often decided to just try and bull into the opposing Line and hope that they retreated before contact. If the enemy Line held steady and kept up a stedy fire the Column attack was almost always doomed to fail.
Against the steady soldiers and effective musketry of the British it was usually suicide. Wellington added the extra wrinkle of deploying his infantry on a reverse slop to shield it from French Artillery and this also made it difficult for the advancing French Columns to time when to try to deploy into Line. They usually crested the top of the slope and got a face full of lead followed by an Endlish bayonet charge. They never did really figure out a solution to this.
Not knowing much about napoleons tactics or the column...
Was it really just sort of a way of mashing men into the enemy line so they could fight with bayonets? Like... force of numbers on a small section of line making it difficult to kill all the men coming at you... and then when the french contacted the enemy line they just turned the whole thing into a big fight with pointy sticks?
At Waterloo d'Erlons corps attacked the allied lines in huge columns of whole divisions and were easy targets for artillery and a cavalry attack. During the battle itself the errors made could very well have been based on staff inefficiencies or mistakes. D'Erlon's I Corps attack was made in the huge unwieldy division columns composed of the individual regiments in line formation one behind the other. One of D'Erlon's divisions refused to use the formation advancing in battalion columns and as a result was the only formation to survive intact the British heavy cavalry counterattack.
It must have been very scary hearing them advance towards you with drums beating,Inexperienced soldiers might even have run away.It was just as scary for the poor French soldier stuck in the middle of a column with no hope of escaping artillery or cavalry,No chance to form square in such a formation.
Last edited by Jihada; August 24, 2009 at 04:10 PM.
First of all, the division columns succeeded in defeating Wellington's line. Some historians may call out the column attack itself as an error, but others maintain the error was in not supporting them with cavalry. Side note - there was a discussion on the main forums here about cavalry effectiveness, with the consensus being that they weren't particularly in this time frame. I'd seriously like to debate that.
Edit: to be clear: I agree that D'Erlon's attack was not the best use of a column. I'm making the point that it shouldn't be viewed as "typical".
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
These unfortunates formed in columns of battalion by division. Each division marched on a deployed battalion frontage with successive battalions, also formed in line, marching to their rear. Durutte, the commander of D'Erlon's 4th Division, says that the formation was dictated by the staff officers carrying the attack order.[60] Whether Napoleon or Ney expressly willed the awkward formation is unknown. Ney had used a similar formation with Marchand's Division in 1807 at Friedland. At Friedland, however, Marchand had been hurrying to achieve a flank position from which to launch an assault and therefore had not the time to deploy. In contrast, at Waterloo there was ample time to prepare. Regardless of how D'Erlon's deployment came about, the unwieldy French formation caused the attack to fail dismally.
Secondly, there seems to be an underlying theme of, "columns are dumb, French are dumb for using them, they had to use them because their men are dumb." That's the position espoused by Oman, among others. It's hogwash. Columns are one tool in the tool box, the French used them all - including some the British weren't capable using with their training.
(read the whole article, it's multiple pages, pulldowns at the bottom to navigate.)
One implication of Oman's analysis was that "French tacticians of the Napoleonic Wars were rather stupid, and blind to the most fundamental principles of infantry fighting."[11] Such, of course, was not the case.
...
Oman states that the Emperor's "most celebrated battle strokes seem frequently to have been made by very gross and heavy masses.[20] Sir Charles cites Soult's assault on the Pratzen heights during the battle of Austerlitz as an example.[21] However, he is wrong.
(case after case of refutation)
Long as we're quoting from this article, Jihada, cast your eyes upon..
Another French tactic used by the Grande Armée was to dissolve entire battalions into skirmish order. Oman is also mistaken about this point. He writes:
"I do not remember any case in the Peninsular battles where whole battalions were broken up into skirmishers...Nor do I think that it occurred often, if ever, in any of the imperial battles".[25]
(case after case of refutation by the author, followed by...)
In and of themselves these examples are not of surpassing historical importance. Skirmish order was merely one available formation that French commanders could select from the tactical tool box. However, the fact that the French were routinely capable of deploying entire units into skirmish order challenges Oman's expertise in French small unit tactics.
Last edited by Randall Turner; August 24, 2009 at 04:31 PM.
Yeah, d'Erlon's using of the huge and awkward Column is one of the mysteries of Waterloo. One theory I have read was that it was thought that the inexperienced and less well disciplined elements of Wellington's Army would run upon seeing it advancing toward them. Of course Wellington didn't just passively wait for it to reach his line but sent in a large Cavalry attack which shattered the rediculous formation. A total fiasco.
Oman did correct himself later on his opinion of Columns. I agree though, the Column had its place on the battlefield. It was only when used poorly that it failed in its function.
Last edited by Sol Invictus; August 24, 2009 at 04:36 PM.
Yeah, d'Erlon's using of the huge and awkward Column is one of the mysteries of Waterloo. One theory I have read was that it was thought that the inexperienced and less well disciplined elements of Wellington's Army would run upon seeing it advancing toward them. Of course Wellington didn't just passively wait for it to reach his line but sent in a large Cavalry attack which shattered the rediculous formation. A total fiasco.
Oman did correct himself later on his opinion of Columns. I agree though, the Column had its place on the battlefield. It was only when used poorly that it failed in its function.
Sorry to keep disagreeing, but my understanding of the event is a bit different. It's not at all a certain thing that a cavalry charge will break that formation, first of all. The British Heavy Brigades, though suffering from the same organizational command and control faults typical of British cavalry, is very heavy cavalry. They also caught the formation in a disarrayed state due to the preceding fight vs. Allied infantry and most importantly being in the process of crossing the sunken lane. Their view was obscured, which magnified the surprise (and shock value) of the charge.
Also, I don't think Wellington ordered the charge. I'm at work, but I believe Uxbridge exercised his own judgment here. (Which, with a British cavalry commander, will likely result in a charge in most cases. They are not shy.)
Sorry to keep disagreeing, but my understanding of the event is a bit different. It's not at all a certain thing that a cavalry charge will break that formation, first of all. The British Heavy Brigades, though suffering from the same organizational command and control faults typical of British cavalry, is very heavy cavalry. They also caught the formation in a disarrayed state due to the preceding fight vs. Allied infantry and most importantly being in the process of crossing the sunken lane. Their view was obscured, which magnified the surprise (and shock value) of the charge.
Also, I don't think Wellington ordered the charge. I'm at work, but I believe Uxbridge exercised his own judgment here. (Which, with a British cavalry commander, will likely result in a charge in most cases. They are not shy.)
No worries, I didn't go into much detail with which to disagree. I actually agree with your particulars. I am not sure who actually ordered the charge but it would have made sense for Uxbridge to have issued it. I didn't mean to suggest that Wellington personally gave the order. The massive Column was simply too unwieldy. I think the results speak for themselves.
i dont think it was uxbridge who ordered the British heavies to have a go and charge. Such a big an important descision involving such a large body of troops would have had to be ordered dy Wellesley, the army commander. Uxbridge would have at least had to ask permission to order the charge.
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"Peccavi" or "I have sinned"
Message from British General Charles Napier to the Governor General of India, to inform him of his capture of Sindh, (I Have sinned/Sindh).
I went to military college and we had full dress parades every Friday to close out the week. I was in the army and participated in a lot of parades. I reenacted American Revolution and American Civil War. I can tell you first hand that columns are far more maneuverable, faster, and easier to maintain than lines. And that's when you are not being shot at and people are not falling.
The use of columns in the attack is a very good tactic, but you have to do it right, as part of a combined arms assault. In front of the columns the French would deploy massive skirmish screens. These also move fast. Pound with artillery first and then send out your skirmish screens followed by fast moving infantry columns. Add some cavalry support between the columns and the results are devistating, if you do it right.
Lines give better firepower, but are slow to cover long distances and hard to keep dressed.
The British could defend in line since they were not maneuvering long distances. The French had to cover long distances to reach the British defensive positions, which forced them into column. The French mistake at Waterloo was massing their infantry without cavalry support, then massing their cavalry without infantry support. If you insist on being stupid, you are going to lose.
I use columns to attack when playing the Napoleonic Mod by OneManShow. Group four units, change their frontage to increase depth, then put them in group formation = double line. You end up with two front and two back. It works pretty good if you send it in after the enemy line has been roughed up a little.
The whole reason behind using columns is speed. Napleonic battlefields were much more dynamic than those of, say, the seven years' war. Everyone used columns and skirmishers more in this time period.
Ney always gets pinged for not supporting his cavalry with more infantry. That's not fair. He knew he needed infantry support to make the cav charge decisive vs. squares. He explicitly asked Napoleon for more infantry during that stage of the battle, and Napoleon replied to the effect of, "I don't have any!" The problem was that the VI Corps and half the guard were engaged with the Prussians, essentially eating up the remainder of the French infantry reserve.
Of course that leaves the other half of the Guard that could have been used and of course was later in the day without Cavalry support. One theory I have read is that Ney observed the English Army making a retrograde movement to a more covered position and took this as the English line retreating and therefore ordered the Cavalry forward to speed their departure. This wouldn't explain the subsequent charge when this was proven not to be the case however. I guess by that point Ney had gotten his blood up.
i dont think it was uxbridge who ordered the British heavies to have a go and charge. Such a big an important descision involving such a large body of troops would have had to be ordered dy Wellesley, the army commander. Uxbridge would have at least had to ask permission to order the charge.
Wellington gave Uxbridge command over the cavalry arm before the battle. Adkin notes in the Waterloo Companion that this was unusual for the normally "hands-on" Wellington, but all the same he did indeed leave the cavalry to Uxbridge.
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
Of course that leaves the other half of the Guard that could have been used and of course was later in the day without Cavalry support. One theory I have read is that Ney observed the English Army making a retrograde movement to a more covered position and took this as the English line retreating and therefore ordered the Cavalry forward to speed their departure. This wouldn't explain the subsequent charge when this was proven not to be the case however. I guess by that point Ney had gotten his blood up.
Yes Ney mistook a British move to avoid cannon-fire as a retreat and ordered in the cavalry. He eventually ordered in the Bachelu and Tissot infantry divisions but too late to affect the outcome. He asked Napoleon for the Middle Guard but the Emperor, horrified at his misuse of the men at La Haie Sante refused.
Napoleon's massive army column attacks
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But yes Column formations need to be in NTW. They were used frequently during the Revolutionary battles and their frequency decreased quite a bit during the early years of Napoleon's reign but were used more often as the ongoing wars decreased the quality of his soldiers and leadership casualties became harder to replace. Moving in a Line into an attack without loosing all order takes some skill.
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
They are not shy.)
I actually agree with your particulars. I am not sure who actually ordered the charge but it would have made sense for Uxbridge to have issued it. I didn't mean to suggest that Wellington personally gave the order. The massive Column was simply too unwieldy. I think the results speak for themselves.
