Was Jesus a Socialist?

[Fight!]

Jankren

[Frostwulf]

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. John 8:7
Like the U.S. Constitution there is allot of interpretation on what is really being said. My opinion is not of those on this thread, nor on what I believe to be a generalization of Left and Right.

[Tankbuster]

Many people (myself included) believe that Jesus was a Socialist or at least shared many of the same ideals as a Socialist anyone wish to share their views on this subject?

Not by a long shot.

You might have noticed that different societies throughout the ages got Jesus to be a socialist, a nazi, a proponent of slavery, someone who opposed slavery, a left-winger, an anarchist, a right-winger... And that's because Jesus spoke so little about political things (or at least he's not recorded to) that you can literally justify any kind of society with it.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to win credibility for your ideas by claiming that a 2000-year-old Jewish preacher was on your side.

its blatantly obvious he is very anti capitalistic and very much so for equality of all human especially the poor. also he is against the idea of money itself.

He might seem to be anti-capitalistic because his core message was that the apocalyps was coming soon.
That's why he also said not to care about your clothes, your food, your family... God will make sure that everything is OK, and he will do so soon.

So does that sound like a socialist to you, or more like a 2012-conspiracy guy?

Now don't get me wrong, there's great morality in the New Testament, but you have to look for it.

[Fight!]

How would someone claim Jesus was a nazi or a proponent of slavery?

[jankren]

Not by a long shot.

You might have noticed that different societies throughout the ages got Jesus to be a socialist, a nazi, a proponent of slavery, someone who opposed slavery, a left-winger, an anarchist, a right-winger... And that's because Jesus spoke so little about political things (or at least he's not recorded to) that you can literally justify any kind of society with it.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to win credibility for your ideas by claiming that a 2000-year-old Jewish preacher was on your side.

Can you tell me some quotes which show Jesus was not a socialist? If he lived in 21st century America he would probably die of heart attack.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

How would someone claim Jesus was a nazi or a proponent of slavery?

Proponents of slavery pointed to the parable in Matthew 18:21-35, where a king (representing God) orders a man who owes him a debt to sell his wife and children as slaves to raise the money. That's not exactly a condemnation of slavery.

[Tankbuster]

Can you tell me some quotes which show Jesus was not a socialist? If he lived in 21st century America he would probably die of heart attack.

The fact that socialism was only invented in the 1800's because there was no industralized society prior to that age, should give you a little bit of a clue why he could not have been a socialist.

Socialism and communism emerged because of the societal pressures placed on the workers of heavy industry. Many (in fact most) of the points they protested again didn't exist back then in the Roman era.
All of which makes it incredibly short-sighted to pretend that he was a socialist.

Did Jesus argue for the violent overthrowal of the rich?
Did Jesus argue for the organisation of unions to ask for privileges from the big industry?
Did Jesus argue for cooperative companies (employers for employers)?
Did Jesus argue for equal political rights for everyone?
Did Jesus argue for a socialized protection of sick or old employers?

No, no, no, no and no.

Having contempt for the rich and trying to persuade them to give away their money, sure as heck isn't socialism.
Especially not if the underlying reason is that the apocalyps is coming, so you have to give your money away otherwise you'll burn in hell. Not socialism. It's apocalyptic preaching.

Sometimes I wonder where these gigantic misconceptions about socialism come from. It's the same misconceptions that makes Americans think that a public alternative for private insurance companies can be accurately described as 'socialized healthcare'

[Mangalore]

Who are you talking to?

More importantly, the issue at hand isn't healthcare, it's whether Jesus promoted socialist ideas, which is pretty hard imo since he didn't really care for politics all that much.

Really difficult to claim as religion was the second pillar of politics right up to the end of Absolutism. Religion was an important political factor which is why these things were politicial positions in the Roman republic.

> Religion killed more people than any other reason in history
> No, politics abused religion to kill more people than by any other reason in history
> Religion and politics are indistinguishable as the former legitimized the latter and the latter empowered the former through all ages and civilizations until barely 200 years ago.

Jesus got killed because he upset the local priesthood which was an important factor of stability which the Romans considered necessary to control the province so they rather intervened to get rid of a troublemaker. Jesus played a pretty political game by upsetting the local goto guys.

[Fight!]

@ Tankbuster: Interesting, you seem to only focus on the more modern aspects of politics. How are we supposed to defend Socialism if you only ask questions noone can answer? I'm no fan of trick questions, are you?

(Though lol at the violent overthrow part, Socialism is a democratic type thing, you normally don't use violence)

[Knight of Heaven]

@ Tankbuster
I understand you, but you got to view this issue on his core and not influenced by their enviroment. What is socialism is in his heart? what are the jesus preachings in his heart as we see today? (some of us anyway) thats the issue you should analise.

[Tankbuster]

@ Tankbuster: Interesting, you seem to only focus on the more modern aspects of politics. How are we supposed to defend Socialism if you only ask questions noone can answer? I'm no fan of trick questions, are you?

If someone claims that Jesus was a socialist, it's not a 'trick question' when I tell you that socialism is a philosophy that stems from an antipathy against an industrialised society. Which was not there in Jesus' day.
So yes, you won't be able to defend the idea that Jesus was a socialist. That's kinda the whole point.

(Though lol at the violent overthrow part, Socialism is a democratic type thing, you normally don't use violence)

Socialism has the same goals as marxism, but you're correct that socialism tends to be less violent. It does utlilize the power of the mob and the power of the union, however. That's how most socialist improvements to society have been made.
Don't confuse present-day socialist parties with what socialism is at its core.

@ Tankbuster
I understand you, but you got to view this issue on his core and not influenced by their enviroment. What is socialism is in his heart? what are the jesus preachings in his heart as we see today? (some of us anyway) thats the issue you should analise.

Apocalyptic preaching.
Socialism in its heart is the process to reach the marxist ideals that I've outlined above.

The fact alone that Jesus thinks that political (and all earthly) matters are irrevelant because the apocalyps is imminent, is completely antithetical to a political ideology like socialism. How long does this bear repeating?

[Orko]

Jesus was a hippie, if that's what you mean.

[Tankbuster]

Jesus was a hippie, if that's what you mean.

Take a look at the quotes TG provided (out of the dozens and dozens that you could find):

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where" 'the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire.
(Mark 9: 43-49)

For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' Then " 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
(Luke 23: 29-30)

"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. .... "But in those days, following that distress, " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
(Mark 13: 14-25)

Must have been a very strange hippie

[Odovacar]

Jesus was a blood and thunder preacher who banged on endlessly about the coming end of the world and the hellfire and torment that would follow for anyone who didn't listen to him and believe. He was not a mellow hippy or a proto-socialist. He was a ranting nutter.

Thiu, Thiu, your sharp historical sense left you for a minute to bring you bitter atheist fruits...

For you may know, there were many "nutters" in those times. Not to mention prophecies, magic etc. were credible things unlike today.
Not to mention Christ shaped humanity's moral like Buddha or Muhammad.
He was a great, very influential moralist...one of the very greatest in history.
There must be a reason for it, and one doesn't need religion to see it.

He preached thunder, and prophecised upcoming enmity. And in the Bible he heals sick people for free, defends a woman, who was going to be stoned to death, and even accepts the faith of a foreign roman soldier....
Summa summarum: he doesn't seem to be that bad.
Was he not right when he said "do with others as you want to be dealt with"?
(not exact quotation)
Was his teaching, that one should do right from heart instead of following a strict law, not a great step forward?

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Thiu, Thiu, your sharp historical sense left you for a minute to bring you bitter atheist fruits...

Eh? I'm talking about the clear historical evidence that Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher. Any "bitterness" you imagine I have (I don't, actually) is irrelevant.

For you may know, there were many "nutters" in those times. Not to mention prophecies, magic etc. were credible things unlike today.

Yes, there were many people in those times who we would consider nutters. I'm pointing out that the idea that Jesus was some kind of mellow hippy who simply talked about how we should all be nice to each other is not only imposing modern ideas on an ancient Jewish preacher but is also ignoring the clear evidence that his preaching was about much more than being nice to each other. It was substantially about the coming apocalyptic kingship of God - that was his core message. See Mark 1:15 for details

Not to mention Christ shaped humanity's moral like Buddha or Muhammad.
He was a great, very influential moralist...one of the very greatest in history.
There must be a reason for it, and one doesn't need religion to see it.

That's nice. But his moral message was simply part of his apocalyptic beliefs.

He preached thunder, and prophecised upcoming enmity. And in the Bible he heals sick people for free, defends a woman, who was going to be stoned to death, and even accepts the faith of a foreign roman soldier....
Summa summarum: he doesn't seem to be that bad.

Where did I say he was "bad"?

Was he not right when he said "do with others as you want to be dealt with"?
(not exact quotation)

His paraphrase of the Rabbi Hillel's dictum there was, again, part of his apocalyptic message.

Was his teaching, that one should do right from heart instead of following a strict law, not a great step forward?

What he actually said was that the law should be followed to the letter because it comes from God and would lead those who followed it to be spared in the coming cataclysm, not for its own sake. But my point was simply that, however nice his moral teachings were, they were simply part of his apocalypcism.

He was not simply a moral teacher. To ignore his apocalyptic ideas is to cherry pick from his whole message. Something modern people like to do because the rest of his message is rather uncomfortable and, to most of us, pretty weird.

[Ummon]

The aphorism of the day: scholarship = truth (map = landscape).

Do not ask which age's scholarship: the question is too complicated. Perhaps it belongs in the EMM.

He was not simply a moral teacher. To ignore his apocalyptic ideas is to cherry pick from his whole message. Something modern people like to do because the rest of his message is rather uncomfortable and, to most of us, pretty weird.

http://www.stlouischurch.org/litarch5.htm

Today, August 15, is the feast of the Assumption, wherein Mary’s body was assumed into heaven after her death. Today’s first reading, an allusion to Mary, is from the Book of Revelation, also known as the Apocalypse. From the Greek verb apokalypto meaning to uncover, or reveal, hence, revelation, the Apocalypse reveals John’s vision of the end of the world.

An apocalyptic August 15 to all speakers of ancient greek. Real ones.

[MaximiIian]

Many people (myself included) believe that Jesus was a Socialist or at least shared many of the same ideals as a Socialist anyone wish to share their views on this subject?

Socialism did not develop until the late 18th century.
However, the views of Jesus of Nazareth as expounded upon in the New Testament are remarkably proto-socialist. Particularly interesting is that he would have come from a middle-class-esque background, i.e. a trained artisan that had very good pay. Many campaigners of social reform for the lower classes came from a step above the poor; I mean, think of it- if you're going to be a wandering preacher, you can't be that poor, else you can't afford to just wander and preach all the time.

In any case, as Thunderdick said, he wasn't just a preacher of social change. He was also an apocalyptic loon who thought the world was going to come to end right soon. And, obviously, it didn't.

[iudas]

I hate it when people judge religion by modern standards. Christianity is 2,000 years old, and Judaism is even older. How can you judge it by modern morals and be fair about it?

[BNS]

No ... So your telling me that in my days as a christian I missed out on the part that "charity" and christian morals should be applied through force and coercion rather than as a voluntary act of love?

To the person who proposed this and all those too eager to jump the bandwagon -

[RussoAmiTurristo]

I believe that while there is no God, Jesus did carry through some very advanced intellectual ideas for his time. I believe that he emphasized sympathy with others and thinking of society as a whole rather than parts(rich/poor) and thus wanted to encourage people to make sacrifices for the greater good and not just yourself. Socialism is exactly this as people, in a socialist society, indirectly or directly give their money through taxes to huge welfare programs and help others.

I believe that socialism and pacism are ideas that are brought about by an advanced society, not individuals.

So you would ask me: is Jesus the son of god. I would say no. But Jesus and his disciples were far ahead of their time in intelligent thinking.