American Pledge of Allegiance

[Atheist Peace]

Ok, im curious about what others think about the american pledge of allegiance. I will post reasons why i dislike it further in the post. I began not saying the pledge at school this past school year and my (:wub:) homeroom teacher eventually just stopped telling me to stand up. Im starting High School next year and im certainly not going to give in and say the pledge but im wondering what they will do. (BTW if anyone has an experience share it)

Ok well, i have 4 main objections with the pledge:
1) 'Under God' is seen as a lie by myself because i do not believe in god so it does not make sense to be saying i am under god when i do not htink i am.
2) I dont think a country should be indoctrinating me or my fellow citizens with their own religious ideals and that is precisely what 'under god' does.
3)The 'under god' line (as well as some other parts and the general theme) perpetuate the idea that god is on the side of the US and that what our government does is always justified because we are 'Under God'
4)I have a general objection to pledging my allegiance to anything, especially i government (i dont mean bush admin.) that i see as a bunch of corrupt douche bags who want to buy and sell my life. I dont want to be another automaton standing in unison with others around me just blindly repeating what the government tells me to say. I feel that the pledge of allegiance is just a way to eradicate our ability to question the government's actions and it is threatening to free thinking.

Well those are my ideas, so what does everyone think about the issue?
(and please no flaming)

[Novusordo]

any country that needs to impose patriotism, is not patriotic.

[wilpuri]

You really should grow up. I have no idea what it is, but I don't mind mumbling our Father at church during different ceremonies or stuff like that (I am not a 'believer'). Its really just a tradition, why the hell do people have to protest the most insignificant of things? Do something useful, like save the whales.

[Tom Paine]

Its a matter of principle. I'd rather be called "unpatriotic" than be forced to go against my religious principles. Luckily I'm a British ctizen and so don't have to.

[Novusordo]

it is also indoctrination to force people from a young age to be convinced that the United States is the good guy and everyone it fights must be the bad guy and that they must agree with what their leaders tell them or they are being un-patriotic.

Pure indoctrination.

[Lord Agelmar]

All I can say is that you dont have to stand to say the pledge, that right is protected under the law. I forget the court case so ill try to dig up the name, but yeah, if you dont like it just dont do it.

[SovietDoom]

Why are you complaining?

Hell, you don't even have to say it if you don't want to.

Grow up.

[Xiaodun]

When I was living in the US, they sent me to the principals office for not saying it.

Besides, it doesnt matter if you have or dont have to say it or not, any public education system that teaches children how to pledge alliance to a flag or any other patriotic crap (beyond the usual idiotic national athems and such) is seriously wrong.

[Syron]

In a sense I agree with wilpuri. Tradition is tradition and it's not really the most important thing to concern yourself with. You will forgive me though Wilpuri for departing with your comment on one point, and that is about the "under god" part.

I must say as an atheist I actually would have no problem with being compelled to say anything about god or religion, it doesn't affect the truth, as long as people know I don't agree with the sentiment I don't see much problem, or rather there are more important things. That is as long as it is just tradition, the problem I have with the "under god" part is it hasn't anything to do with tradition.

The "under god" part was added in 1954 (i think) as an attack ON atheists. Well actually it was an attack on "godless Communists", even though Communists aren't really atheist, it’s still an attack on atheists. I could not say a line that was specifically intended to attack me no matter the compulsion to “fit in”.

I suggest atheist peace, that you make perfectly clear your objection to the pledge for the various reasons you have stated and if people wish to listen, tell them why. After doing this however I would say the pledge. Once your objection has been noted there is little reason not to participate. In fact it will help your position to show that unlike some might say, you don’t “want to destroy American society” or any crap like that. By showing that you are reasonable and not confrontational you will help to make others accept you actually have a point as people cannot simply dismiss you as being anti-American or something like that. I would however if you, as I take offence to the attack that is the “under god” part, not say these words or replace it with something you do agree with.

[Tom Paine]

Also, there is a major problem with it: "under god". How can a non-monotheist say that without basically blasphemeing against their religion. An atheist is not blasphemeing because they have no religion, they are just being hypocritical; a non-monotheist however?

[Atheist Peace]

All I can say is that you dont have to stand to say the pledge, that right is protected under the law. I forget the court case so ill try to dig up the name, but yeah, if you dont like it just dont do it.

Yes that right is technically protected but come on, do you think there are many kids who, even if they want to, stand up to it and refuse to say it? I dont think so, it can result in shunning by other students, being called unpatriotic (which to many is not good) and possibly getting in trouble with teachers, although unjustly.

it is also indoctrination to force people from a young age to be convinced that the United States is the good guy and everyone it fights must be the bad guy and that they must agree with what their leaders tell them or they are being un-patriotic.

Pure indoctrination.

Yes, i mean they have 1st graders repeating it every morning and by the time they are old enough to really consider whether they want to say it, almost all of them will do it because of 'just tradition' in a sense because they will lose their ability to question what they've done every morning for the past 10 years or so. The same goes often for religion because kids are brought to church and religion class all their lives (i assume most times against their own objections due to boredom) and told to pray, go to church etc. and so it is very hard or impossible for them to question what they've been doing and told to do all their lives.

[ablitzkrieg]

Stand up out of respect, face the flag... You dont have to put your hand on your heart, dont have to say it. I never say it simply because i have already pledged my alliegance to this country, so whats the point of saying it again?

But then, i will always stand up and face the flag out of respect. Not doing this doesnt affirm anything except that you dont respect anything but your own selfish beliefs. Thats why teachers get ******. -- Since when is "P!ssed" a curse word?

[Atheist Peace]

How does it show that i dont respect anything but my own 'selfish beliefs'? It shows that i dont respect the idea of pledging myself to a piece of cloth or being indoctrinated by the us government.

You act like if you dont repect a flag, you dont respect anything, since when is a piece of cloth the most respectable thing in the world?

[Casanova]

What is wrong with pledging your allegience to your country? You dont have to say the words " under God" if you dont want to. Do you find pledging to "liberty and justice for all" repulsive?
The radical liberals along with the ACLU and other radical groups are doing their best to make sure that any hint of nationalism or patriotism is erased from minds of young americans. Why is that? Is it so wrong to remember those who died so that we might have our freedom?

[Atheist Peace]

Well in my view, pledging is one form of taking our freedom (which we are no where near having but thats another subject). It is taking our intellectual freedom and our freedom to question what the government does. It is fine to appreciate what others in the past have done to 'keep americans free' but not in a way that should give you a sense of superiority as an american.

[meh_cd]

Stop being a edit, it tends to put things in perspective. Rest assured if you were at my school I'd probably punch you a few times for good measure if you were this obnoxious there.

Please, no personal attacks, no flaming. this is a mild warning. - Archer

[RusskiSoldat]

Holy crap, I agree 100% with wilpuri.
That must be a sign of the apocalypse.

[saulot333]

American people sure are funny. In my country (you guess) if the government ever try to impose such a thing as a pledge of allegiance it would be meet by a laughter so thunderous that mountains would crumble, oceans would disappears etc

[Harry7]

Just pay lip service to the pledge, it doesn't matter, if you don't agree with it, fair enough, but whats the point is having a fit over it, all it would do is hack people off. Just stand up look at the flag, remind yourself of why you disagree and remind yourself not to become brainwashed, its a few seconds of something mildly discomforting, thats nothing really, just take it easy.

[Sosobra]

You don't like don't stand up , but prepared to deal with the consequences. When I look at the flag I don't pledge to a bunch of blue bloods , I remeber those gave thier lives for the flag while in the service of thier country.