Preview: The Romani

[SigniferOne]

[/CENTER]

Just a note on your muscled cuirass: it seems way too rough, and to mountainous Italic tribes like the Oscans instead. Here is a muscled cuirass found near Rome from the 5th century BC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~d...wlanuvium.html

[Tellos Athenaios]

Not an expert by any means; I was just a little intrigued by your note. First of all it is a 5th c. BC. cuirass, and neither fashion nor armour would've remain exactly the same style for so long a period.

However that's just conjecture on my part; that of someone with far too little knowledge to engage in a debate about whether or not a particular picture is relevant. So on a more useful note I tracked down a couple of pictures posted in the various concept threads:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1913/cuirassaqj1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Picture3-2.jpg

Also we have 3 different versions of the "muscled cuirass theme" (1 iron, 2 bronze according to a post in the concept thread): that is the different equipment bonus M2TW offers.

[Mr Roet]

Does the office system actually work? I have never played EB on the Rome-engine, thus I don't know if it works on there. I wonder: if someone is elected in spring, then has 2 turns of holding an office and afterwards 4 turns of being a pro-.., he would not have time to actually fight battles. Imagine you're fighting in Anatolia; there is no chance you can move your general there in 6 turns and actually campaign as well. What are your thoughts about this?

[smoesville]

It might if ship movement increased. I mean it really doesn't take a year to sail to greece from the other side of italy.

[Atilius]

A few responses to some questions that have accumulated in this thread.

- Offices system seems to be something new in the whole M2TW modding world, did you use the Pope election thing to express support for particular candidates?

No, the player simply needs to select the character. Every character in Rome and eligible for office "X" gets a "Candidate for X" trait at the beginning of the Spring turn. It's easiest to select the character by clicking the character scroll on the left side of the trait gain notification message. The player can effectively support only as many characters as there are available offices.

just wondering; what sort of bonuses will each position carry?

The bonuses for the promagistries will be much the same as for the corresponding magistries. Bonuses for the others are unlikely to change much.

Does the office system actually work?

No, of course not. Why would you want it to work?

I wonder: if someone is elected in spring, then has 2 turns of holding an office and afterwards 4 turns of being a pro-.., he would not have time to actually fight battles. Imagine you're fighting in Anatolia; there is no chance you can move your general there in 6 turns and actually campaign as well. What are your thoughts about this?

EB1 has four turns per year, as will EB2. We are considering extending the term of Propraetorships from 2 to 4 years as the number of Roman controlled regions grows. Proconsulships will last 4 years, which means a newly elected Consul will hold imperium for 20 turns.

[vonVince]

It might if ship movement increased. I mean it really doesn't take a year to sail to greece from the other side of italy.

QFT. For the EBII team - please - remember tinker with the movement, of both ships and land armies.

[paulus]

Hi SigOne,

I think the picture you've posted is an absolutely beautiful example of a cavalry commander's cuirass. You'll see its like on some officers or perhaps the FMs, but we preferred to be a bit conservative with the equites' armor. But you will see extensively detailed bronze cuirasses like that one eventually on Roman officers or generals. The most interesting difference aside from anatomical detail seems to be the hinges over the shoulder, which I find really interesting, as if it is a fusion of the Italic cuirass and the Greek. I'm not sure whether we would keep that particular detail. The cuirass on which the present depiction was based is late 5/early 4 in Etruria. Actually that cuirass has much less detailed flank musculature than the one you've posted, but it does feature it. We might look to have Martelus make a small modification. But I hope you'll understand why I'd prefer to reserve a cuirass like the one you've posted for higher-ups.

By the way, is that cuirass truly of early 5th century make? In addition to the high quality worksmanship and detailed musculature, it is one of if not the earliest cavalryman's muscled cuirass I've seen. Or, I can not now recall one that would precede it.

[julianus heraclius]

Seeing your previews just makes me cry.

[THE IBERIAN]

I can't wait when I'll be able to play this amaizing gamecalled EBII (it's not a mistake it's not a simple mod it's a totally new magnificent game)

[Julianus Flavius]

Hi JH good to see a formiliar face here!
I am looking forward to this mod heaps! I really like all the suspence and buildup, it makes it really exciting every time i see a new post!

[eddy_purpus]

I agree with Julianus...
If it wasnt for EB...
I would'nt be on this community anymoar (and a few people too )

[totalus]

OMYGOD O MY GOD GUYS I LOVE YOU I WILL WAIT SO YOU MAKE THIS THE BEST MOD IN THE HISTORY OF ALL MODS ^_______^
N____N WOW OWOW WOWOW JAJAJA IS JUST BEAUTIFUL I WILL GO OUT AN BUY A NEW GRAPHIC CARD FOR THIS KEEP THE WORK I KNOW IS HARD TO DO THIS IT TAKES TIME
AND PATIENCE AND WE MUST WAIT EVERYONE

EB2 FOREVER THANK YOU GUYS I LOVE IT I'M EXITED AND ALMOST SPEECHLESS AJAJAJA JAJAJA WHAT ELSE CAN I WRITE TO EXPRESS EB2EB2EB2EB2EB2EB2 ^0^!!!!!!

[Achilla]

I have got some gameplay questions - those numerous traits, all cool and nice, but what comes first - gameplay or realism? Do you guys find it personally fun not as a modder but as a player to move each and every character to Rome and wait X turns to get Y title because of Z? Do you find it fun and interesting from the place of casual player, that he will get penalty for poor memory due to lack of 'imperium' on his general? Is this any fun you can't repel those pesky invaders and have to call off a siege because your 'imperium' runs out?

Your preview pretty much stated the internal structure of this, with explanation of different ranks and offices, but it didn't really say anything about actual gameplay. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know also have you thought about far, far expansion, because it sounds silly to send a freshborn general from one end of your empire to another end or straight to Rome to get some funny trait so your general is finally able to kill and murder with roman army, like any funny barbarian would do without any smart titles and qualities for that. Old, good saying comes to mind - "All roads lead to Rome' - but is this really a gameplay value this time?

Well, to tip it off, it's not an offence to any of you, I track this mod for a longer time over your native forum and I liked all previews so far, but this one made me wonder is this well-thought gameplay-wise. I have personally played DLV and was severely put off by numerous traits and limitations put onto player, which were said to increase realism AND gameplay value, but in my case have degraded big part of actual enjoyment (I don't share CA's attitude of withdrawing family feuds and other things from ETW engine because it was 'too complicated' for end user, I simply highly dislike extremes, either in primitivism or complexity - I found your 'coloniae' and 'people' systems to be well-thought and interesting, but this trait system seems too overwhelming to understand and grasp for the not only casual player, and when something is downright irritating and complicated, it becomes simply ridiculous - because it loses it's entire value of realism, as 'additional flavour' suddenly becomes a 'god-damn obstacle and thorn in the arse to enjoy the rest of the content and otherwise amazing mod').

[k_raso]

but what comes first - gameplay or realism?

We rather try to reconcile both. Our mod distinguishes itself for being as historical as possible. Some gameplay has been sacrificed in the past in the name of historical realism (for instance, winter campaigning restricted for non steppe and sweboz factions, don't tell me that having your FM stranded in the middle of Germania during winter doesn't pisses you off) but rest asssured that if we sacrifice a bit of gameplay in favour of historical realism, we will do it in the least harmful way. And that will be only in ultima ratio circumstances.

On another note, historical realism should be accompanied with the gameplay conditions requiered for it, circumstances that we are struggling to achieve. We have now got the Propraetor and Proconsul traits for Praetors and Consuls whose periods have expired. I think the number of turns are still to be defined, but remember that Caesar had its proconsulship for the provinces of Illiricum and Gallia Cisalpina extended originally to an outstanding 5 year period. Multiplied by four, that gives us twenty turns, and not counting the other 4 turns of the Praetor and Consul traits. Not saying that our proconsulships will last for five years, I'm saying this only to give you an idea that history gives us the chance of making this as un-cumbersome as possible, and we plan to use this possibility.

In addition, we could do this possitively. Perhaps we could give more movement points for the first turn in charge of the Praetor and Consul, to ease up the burden of moving the guy to its province. Thus, something that might have been thought as a liability, like having your FM's in Rome for elections, can be now seen as a gameplay enhancing factor.

Not counting console commands like "character_reset", the engine gives us plenty possibilities to make this an enriching factor, rather than a liability.

If all else fails, we won't reduce gameplay, we will just alter its rules a bit. You will still be able to battle against the Seleucids with your ex-consul located in Ipsos... just with a transitory command penalty, and probably a permanent influence penalty, I dunno. But it's not like we want to immobilize a character should he lead four legions without the neccessary imperium trait.

On a final note, and referring to the way you wrote your post, I understood your doubts and questions, but it would avoid future misunderstanings if you refrain to use words such as "silly", "ridiculous" and "thorn in the arse". Qualifying our members' intensive work with such terms is downright offensive, and while I understood that that wasn't your intention, please avoid that language in the future.

Cheers.

[Achilla]

We rather try to reconcile both. Our mod distinguishes itself for being as historical as possible. Some gameplay has been sacrificed in the past in the name of historical realism (for instance, winter campaigning restricted for non steppe and sweboz factions, don't tell me that having your FM stranded in the middle of Germania during winter doesn't pisses you off) but rest asssured that if we sacrifice a bit of gameplay in favour of historical realism, we will do it in the least harmful way. And that will be only in ultima ratio circumstances.

On another note, historical realism should be accompanied with the gameplay conditions requiered for it, circumstances that we are struggling to achieve. We have now got the Propraetor and Proconsul traits for Praetors and Consuls whose periods have expired. I think the number of turns are still to be defined, but remember that Caesar had its proconsulship for the provinces of Illiricum and Gallia Cisalpina extended originally to an outstanding 5 year period. Multiplied by four, that gives us twenty turns, and not counting the other 4 turns of the Praetor and Consul traits. Not saying that our proconsulships will last for five years, I'm saying this only to give you an idea that history gives us the chance of making this as un-cumbersome as possible, and we plan to use this possibility.

In addition, we could do this possitively. Perhaps we could give more movement points for the first turn in charge of the Praetor and Consul, to ease up the burden of moving the guy to its province. Thus, something that might have been thought as a liability, like having your FM's in Rome for elections, can be now seen as a gameplay enhancing factor.

Not counting console commands like "character_reset", the engine gives us plenty possibilities to make this an enriching factor, rather than a liability.

If all else fails, we won't reduce gameplay, we will just alter its rules a bit. You will still be able to battle against the Seleucids with your ex-consul located in Ipsos... just with a transitory command penalty, and probably a permanent influence penalty, I dunno. But it's not like we want to immobilize a character should he lead four legions without the neccessary imperium trait.

On a final note, and referring to the way you wrote your post, I understood your doubts and questions, but it would avoid future misunderstanings if you refrain to use words such as "silly", "ridiculous" and "thorn in the arse". Qualifying our members' intensive work with such terms is downright offensive, and while I understood that that wasn't your intention, please avoid that language in the future.

Cheers.

Well, the comment at the bottom was meant as augmentativum and more of a joke actually (and it were the DLV devs who should hang me for that comment, not EBII devs ) but since that's pretty much the least important part of what I wrote, let's move onto more important matters. Shall we?

So as to begin, new question arose - I believe those traits will be in place only for the Roman player, yes? As not to handicap the AI of course, since there is no method that I know of to make the AI move it's generals where it's supposed to move in order to get the desired option or bonus (most of economic bonuses is offset with money scripts, that's an easy part, but what about a poor, lone general stuck forever with command penalty? Hmmm). And if the traits were in place for AI player, would it be possible to create AI-only counter-traits that would offset such penalties (e.g. player has -4 command trait ... the same AI player has -4 command trait gained the 'normal' way and invisible AI-only trait which gives +4 command)?

Next, those traits are time-based - so as to speak, when a character has served for long enough, it will eventually retire and die, yes? What I wonder is, what's the max age of characters before death as well as 'become old' age, since people didn't really live too long in these times I guess (neither they did in medieval)? I'm merely suggesting that average lifespan of 60-70 (excluding mortal wounds in fights) might be a bit too much for that era. Though, in case you will follow the vanilla standard, will such a person who gained imperium be able to have this privilege till natural death, or will the seniors naturally fade to younger and more able generals? Have you thought about this? Wondering

Oh, and if I misunderstood something again and actually you stay with your 'imperium' trait forever once you get it after some circumstances are met, then excuse me, but that system is confusing a little to me since I'm hardly a roman history geek and tend to mix the things up, sometimes.

[Mediolanicus]

Next, those traits are time-based - so as to speak, when a character has served for long enough, it will eventually retire and die, yes? What I wonder is, what's the max age of characters before death as well as 'become old' age, since people didn't really live too long in these times I guess (neither they did in medieval)? I'm merely suggesting that average lifespan of 60-70 (excluding mortal wounds in fights) might be a bit too much for that era. Though, in case you will follow the vanilla standard, will such a person who gained imperium be able to have this privilege till natural death, or will the seniors naturally fade to younger and more able generals? Have you thought about this? Wondering

Oh, and if I misunderstood something again and actually you stay with your 'imperium' trait forever once you get it after some circumstances are met, then excuse me, but that system is confusing a little to me since I'm hardly a roman history geek and tend to mix the things up, sometimes.

I'm not at home in the trait department, so I'll let an EB member answer that.
Though in EB I AI generals already get a command bonus, so I guess this will also be the case in EB II.

Maximum age has been the same since modern man exists. High childmoratility and more death by illness drastically lowered the avarage though.
Food and protein are also important here. The avarage protein intake was much higher in classical times than in the middle ages.
Although peasants lived shorter because of hard work and lower quality of food, the upper class - which are the FM's in EB - lived as long as we do now, as long as they didn't die of a fatal illness or injury.
Avarage livespan here certainly was 60-70 if we take out the child mortality and fatal injuries.

The Romans often gave imperium to old experienced ex-consuls. Many Roman generals were well into their sixties and even in their seventies.
Although also a lot of young ones were given command, even if this meant braking the traditional cursus honorum.

Imperium is never for ever, until Caesar gave himself livelong imperium. And we all know how that ended.
However, it was not unusual to prolong the imperium for a few years after the end of the actual office.

[Atilius]

I believe those traits will be in place only for the Roman player, yes?

That's correct.

...and actually you stay with your 'imperium' trait forever once you get it after some circumstances are met,...

For Propraetor and Proconsul, the preview states quite clearly that a character's imperium expires at the end of his term of office.

[Achilla]

That's correct.

For Propraetor and Proconsul, the preview states quite clearly that a character's imperium expires at the end of his term of office.

I have actually read it again and it seems clearer to me. So, that means there is no way to have permanent imperium for Consul or Praetor, because it's a time-limited service without any exceptions?

Well, I believe that as a Roman player I will have no other option but to risk life and well-being of my own Emperor in order to successfully launch years-lasting campaigns.

I guess that constant threat of being vandalised by those barbarians will prove an interesting type of challenge!

[Mediolanicus]

Well, I believe that as a Roman player I will have no other option but to risk life and well-being of my own Emperor in order to successfully launch years-lasting campaigns.

What emperor?

[Achilla]

What emperor?

Did you just say it's impossible to transition the Roman Republic into Roman Empire?

Looks like, since it would take up a faction slot.

Either way, this mod is said to be accurate as much as possible within the starting date, and everything that happens later is up to the player.

So, who said My Rome won't have an Emperor?

Or do you plan to disallow traditional family tree and adopt the 'teutonic tree' from M2TW:K?

Just wondering what the actual game will be like, outside the previews.