Czech Army in 1938

[Kenobi]

Yes, and couple it with czechoslovak failure in utilisation of tanks.

Considering how quickly Germany detached Slovakia and the Sudetenland I just don't see Czechoslovakia doing better than France.

You should take a look at Czech OOB as well as German one. Germany was not in position to launch succesfull ofensive at the end of Munich crisis. In fact, if CZE would decide to attack Austria with 4th army (not counting reserves), they would outnumber german forces here (the forces that were supposed to attack) 2:1. During 30th of september, Germany was not outnumbering Czech army anywhere at all. If they were to attack as soon as possible, I honestly dont think they would be able to do it sooner than second week October. Also, due to nature of Czech defense plan, complete fall of front and chaos as seen during France campaign was very unlikely to happen.

Also, IIRC Germans didnt penetrate the fortified part of the border.

[Papay]

Its ironic but Czechoslovakia didnt suffer as much because of Nazi occupation as other countries.And this has to do with the way that Czechoslovakia fell(without giving any battle). For example my country, greece, fought well against the Axis and the result? Anarchy and violence for ten years. The message? Because youe fight is moral doesnt mean that the result will be good

[Stario]

No, Czechoslovak army had 298 LT vz.35 (10t, 37mm gun) and 50 LT vz.34 (7,5t, 37mm gun). Also no other tanks that could CZE army theoreticaly use, since it was in garages (FT-17, LTP, LTH) had 75mm gun. The only bigger tank that CZE ever produced was ST vz.39 (16t, 47mm) that was even planned to be built with 75mm cannon, but the cannon was never developped. And while the contract for 300 of these tanks was given to factories in 20th of April 38, by the time of Munich crisis not a single ST vz.39 was ready.

“In tanks, Germany was far inferior in quality in September, 1938. At that time, Germany's tanks were all below ten tons (Mark II) and were armed with machine guns, except for a handful of eighteen ton tanks (Mark III) armed with a 37 mm. gun. The Czechs had hundreds of thirty- eight ton tanks armed with 75 mm. cannon. When Germany overran Czechoslovakia in March, 1939, it captured 469 of these superior tanks along with 1,500 planes, 43,500 machine guns, over one million rifles, and a magnificent system of fortifications."


http://www.carrollquigley.net/images/Germany_Czech1.jpg

[Kenobi]

The article is clearly lying. The closer tank that Czechoslovakia ever had to 38t 75mm gun armed tank would be T-34. But that was after the war.

[conon394]

You should take a look at Czech OOB as well as German one. Germany was not in position to launch succesfull ofensive at the end of Munich crisis. In fact, if CZE would decide to attack Austria with 4th army (not counting reserves), they would outnumber german forces here (the forces that were supposed to attack) 2:1. During 30th of september, Germany was not outnumbering Czech army anywhere at all. If they were to attack as soon as possible, I honestly dont think they would be able to do it sooner than second week October. Also, due to nature of Czech defense plan, complete fall of front and chaos as seen during France campaign was very unlikely to happen.

I agree Germany was less ready but my point was had the Czech army done? At least the Polish army had won a war... Its possible things would have turned out great and Nazi Germany would have collapsed and than we could have had a world war with Stalin. But that is sort of on paper scenario that assumes things go well for the UK/France/Czech block. Relaaistically the same paper calculation with good assumptions for France and the UK say Germany should never have overrun France either.

On balance maybe the UK and France really shafted the world, but I don't think its the sure thing that is often claimed

[BlackReconCZE]

Where do you get your informations from? Yes ,we had old aircraft, but we had MUCH TOUGHER fortresses then polish. More modern tanks, artillery and better commanders.

"According to the German study of Polish fortifications titled: "Denkschrift uber die polnische Landesbefestigung", published by Oberkommando der Heer in 1940, Polish concrete fortifications were much better (much more resistant to fire of heavy artillery, Anti-Tank artillery and bombs) than Czechoslovakian fortifications."

This text makes no sense.

[Cyclops]

...
But both Poland and Czechoslovakia must be blamed for such a course of events - not just Poland...

This is a critical point in understanding interwar European politics. In 1918-1921 a plethora new nation-states containing substantial minority elements took the place of the ancien regime empires. While the new Mittel Europa was not as fractious as the previous generation of Balkan states that peeled off the Ottoman Empire I guess a similar zeitgeist prevailed. Think of the kaleidascope of alliances and betrayals that Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece etc experienced.

On top of this France extended its influence as Victor of the West and the only Entente partner who appeared willing to actually get into the mess and form alliances. I guess this acted as a calming influence as no Balkan style wars broke out until Germany went nuts. The n France bugged out, which is a real shame. I agree with many of the posts above suggesting tej Czechs would've been a tough nut and may have staged a stickier defence than Poland or France. If Poland and France had guaranteed the Czechs I think Hitler would've been ttoast, the army would have tossed him to avoid defeat.

Poland scrabbled like hell to extend its borders into the former Romanov realms, and had sore points with the Czechs and Germans that ultimately doomed it. The temptation to slice bits off neighbours (IIRC Poland was compliocit in the carve-up of Czechoslovakia, accepting a piece of the pie as its share) was too strong.

Its a shame as the Czechs seem to have had a viable democracy, unlike pretty much all the other Mittel European states.

[The Despondent Mind]

I still don't understand if Czech had such an amazing army why did haven't they resisted Wermacht? Who gives a damn about Major powers if you face occupation? What are they gonna do to you? Occupy you more? France and UK before 39' are good example why "the good Western Nations" are perfectly able to screw up majorly and ruin everything for everyone. Maybe if Germany fought an exhausting war with the Czech then they might have had a change of heart with all the Nazi and Hitler BS?

[Cyclops]

I still don't understand if Czech had such an amazing army why did haven't they resisted Wermacht? Who gives a damn about Major powers if you face occupation? What are they gonna do to you? Occupy you more? France and UK before 39' are good example why "the good Western Nations" are perfectly able to screw up majorly and ruin everything for everyone. Maybe if Germany fought an exhausting war with the Czech then they might have had a change of heart with all the Nazi and Hitler BS?

There's a few factors. The Czechs did not have the industrial capacity to match Germany, so a 1 vs 1 war would be at best a losing slugfest once the WAllies chickened out.

The Czechs were probably aware the Poles and Hungarians were in for a piece too and would have used force to get it if the Czechs hadn't folded. So it wasn't really 40 divisions to 35, the Germans had flanking allies as well.

Finally I've heard the widely varying reactions of Poland and Czechoslovakia somehow represent national experiences of history in those countries. Poland has a history of slugging it out even against the odds, fighting all through the deluge and through partition, and fighting their way back to existence again in 1918. The Polish state in 1939 looked back on a history of great successes and great defeats but always fighting.

The fledgling Czech state in 1938 looked back on a past less inclined to prompt a fighting response: in particular the Thirty Years war saw a terrible defeat for ethnic Czechs followed by a harsh repressionof thier culture. True the Hussites kicked some butts, but there was never a Czech Empire to look back on, or an overtly militarist culture aside from that one episode.

So the theory goes the Czechs prefered to surrender and survive than fight and die: the Poles saw fighting as the sensible thing to do, as they had everything to win.

[hellheaven1987]

I still don't understand if Czech had such an amazing army why did haven't they resisted Wermacht?

Because half of that amazing army was composed by non-Czechs.

Many people seems forget the one Hitler was dealing was Czechoslovakia, not Czech Republic. Czechs actually suspected if Hitler tried something funny their Slovak population would rather join Hitler, and event proved that was the case.

[Sar1n]

I still don't understand if Czech had such an amazing army why did haven't they resisted Wermacht? Who gives a damn about Major powers if you face occupation? What are they gonna do to you? Occupy you more? France and UK before 39' are good example why "the good Western Nations" are perfectly able to screw up majorly and ruin everything for everyone. Maybe if Germany fought an exhausting war with the Czech then they might have had a change of heart with all the Nazi and Hitler BS?

During Munich Crisis, western powers declared that they won't support Czech resistance. The only one who promsied help was Stalin, and it's doubtful that he'd fulfil the promise. Most likely it would be the same as Poland a year later. So it was a no-win scenario. Czech army might have given Hitler quite a bloody nose, but eventually, the air superiority of Luftwaffe and overwhelming manpower of Wehrmacht would prevail. All that at cost of tens of thousands of lives of Czech servicemen, and most likely harsher occupation. Yes, that mattered a lot. As was noted here before, compared to other countries, Czech population, exluding Jews, suffered much less during occupation than many other nations.

Had the Munich crisis happened a year, maybe year and half later or western allies wouldn't have chickened out (France was, until Munich, closest ally of Czechoslovakia), there wouldn't be a WWII I think. In first case, heavy weapons would be installed in border fortifications (they were still missing in 1938), and medium tanks type 39 (probably equal to Pz III, armed with 47mm anti-tank gun), and Avia B.35 projects would be ready for production, somewhat leveling the field. In second case, pressed between Maginot line and Sudetenland fortifications, Germany wouldn't last.

Ironically, the Munich agreement was, I think, the moment when WWII became unavoidable. It surrendered the only chance Czechoslovakia had of resisting, so subsequent occupation didn't meet any resistance, and Hitler thus gained access to both industrial capability and equipment of Czechoslovakia. If there was a war, both would be destroyed, and Hitler would have to spend several years rebuilding before launching another campaign. But instead, he got just what he needed for the Blitz. And then the western powers failed to learn and did the same thing at Yalta six years later, just handing the country over to Stalin instead of Hitler.

[Ecthelion]

In 1938, the Germans enjoyed only a moderate numerical superiority over the Czechs in the southeastern theater. Had the Czechs been determined to hold out, they could have done so with great effect given the quality of their arms, training and fortifications.

And the Germans would not have been able to keep up the assault for long. France and Britain would have intervened in short order.

[Dromikaites]

There's a few factors. The Czechs did not have the industrial capacity to match Germany, so a 1 vs 1 war would be at best a losing slugfest once the WAllies chickened out.

The Czechs were probably aware the Poles and Hungarians were in for a piece too and would have used force to get it if the Czechs hadn't folded. So it wasn't really 40 divisions to 35, the Germans had flanking allies as well.

Finally I've heard the widely varying reactions of Poland and Czechoslovakia somehow represent national experiences of history in those countries. Poland has a history of slugging it out even against the odds, fighting all through the deluge and through partition, and fighting their way back to existence again in 1918. The Polish state in 1939 looked back on a history of great successes and great defeats but always fighting.

The fledgling Czech state in 1938 looked back on a past less inclined to prompt a fighting response: in particular the Thirty Years war saw a terrible defeat for ethnic Czechs followed by a harsh repressionof thier culture. True the Hussites kicked some butts, but there was never a Czech Empire to look back on, or an overtly militarist culture aside from that one episode.

So the theory goes the Czechs prefered to surrender and survive than fight and die: the Poles saw fighting as the sensible thing to do, as they had everything to win.

The defense of Czechoslovakia was severely compromised by the Anschluss, because it gave the the Germans a way to bypass the Czechoslovak border fortifications.

However had the French and the British stood firm at Munich, it's highly unlikely the Germans would have dared to attack Czechoslovakia in spite of having the ability to go round the fortifications.

With France and Britain committed to enter the war on the Czechoslovak side, Poland would have stayed put since her security against both Germany and Russia depended on the Western Allies. Or the Poles might have even jumped on the Germans (in spite of the still existing at the time Polish-German Non-Aggression Pact), thus eliminating one of their main enemies.

At the same time, with France and Britain firmly committed to the defense of Czechoslovakia, it's less likely the Slovak nationalists would have rocked the boat. One reason why the Slovaks bailed out after Munich was they feared total annexation by Hungary. However, without Munich the Hungarian military position was simply untenable, with Romania and Yugoslavia both ready to jump to the defense of their Little Entente ally Czechoslovakia.

To understand how committed were the East European Allies to honoring their treaties if the Western Allies would have also got involved we need to examine what happened after the Russian invasion of Poland triggered the Polish-Romanian Defense Treaty.

The Romanians offered to attack the Soviet Union, even though nowadays we know the Romanian attack would have been quite likely suicidal.

The Poles declined the Romanian offer because they hoped that in the worst case scenario they could hold out during the winter of 1939 in the area they called "the Romanian bridgehead", a piece of Polish territory bordering Romania. With Romania still not at war with the Russians, supplies could be ferried through the Black Sea and the Romanian territory to that area.

If the Romanians were ready to risk a war with the Soviet Union in September 1939 it is highly likely they would have had little trouble helping Czechoslovakia against Hungary in 1938, and the Yugoslavs would have joined in just as likely since the Hungarian government had managed to alienate both with territorial claims.

All that was needed was for the French and the British to threaten Hitler with intervention at Munich.

[Sphere]

Ironically, the Munich agreement was, I think, the moment when WWII became unavoidable.

Meh...

I think if Hitler had stuck to the Munich agreement, he may have been able to pull off a war agaisnt Poland, (and certainly the USSR) without western interference. The Polish democracy set up by the allies after the Great war had collapsed by the 1930's, being replaced by a rather petty military autocracy. Many people were astonished, not the least of which Hitler, when Britain and France actually went to war in defense of the Polish military dictatorship.


Indeed, it was not until Hitler tore up Munich and occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia that the British/French guaranteed Polish independence. If Hitler respects Munich, and the Czechoslovakian democracy is protected, I think it is far less likely than any line in the sand is drawn in Poland. And if not drawn there, it certainly wouldn't be drawn to protect Stalinist Russia.

[brainless]

I still don't understand if Czech had such an amazing army why did haven't they resisted Wermacht? Who gives a damn about Major powers if you face occupation? What are they gonna do to you? Occupy you more? France and UK before 39' are good example why "the good Western Nations" are perfectly able to screw up majorly and ruin everything for everyone. Maybe if Germany fought an exhausting war with the Czech then they might have had a change of heart with all the Nazi and Hitler BS?

This is quite simple to answer : Edvard Benes, the president of Czechoslovakia, feared that if he refused to forfeit the border areas (even if that meant the country would be practically impossible to be defended, and all the money invested into the army were flushed), the Czechoslovakia would fight an isolated war with Germany and lost (which was likely result, especially if Germany could afford longer war, as they would have human resources to replace casualties, where Czechoslovakia wouldn't), there might be no more war as Hitler was successfully appeased (he was as wrong in this regard as Chamberlain), there will be no further war in Europe and Czechoslovakia would dissolve in Germany and the nation would die.

UK reason for such stance was that they felt they are not ready for a war at this stage, but no one asked them to send troops or bombers to aid Czechoslovakia, if they simply guaranteed the borders as result of WW I (i.e. they would never accept possible occupation of Czechoslovakia) that would be enough for Benes to fight. He should fight anyway, but he was as short sighted as the British Empire and France was at that time.

It was a huge mistake not to count the potential of the industry and economy Germany gained from seizing Austria and Czechoslovakia and just try to appease Hitler to gain the element of time. There is great article on this topic : http://www.warhorsesim.com/papers/MunichCrisis.htm