Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 181

Thread: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

  1. #141
    apple's Avatar Searching for 42
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Stockholm Sweden
    Posts
    11,780

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Yes you gain money from trade but you will need to build up the region to become moneymaking.
    You need to upgrade the roads, farms, ports and other trade buildings.

    It's not like they fought about sicily because it already was a huge trade region, they fought about it because it has great potential to be one.
    Son of Legio
    Father of Paedric & Remlap
    Roma Surrectum II, Ages of Darkness II, Rome Total Realism & RTR: Imperium Surrectum Developer

    Mundus Bellicus - TWC - ModDB - Discord - Steam

  2. #142
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOne View Post
    But how about rich regions.Like you mentioned Rome vs. Carthage was for the money, and money is provided by trade in Sicily and other regions in the mediteranean, that would mean those regions were pretty rich, so if you were to expand there you would tehnically gain money.Granted, people there wouldnt like paying tax, but trade is abundant, so you gain money

    What i mean is that not only should you gain money from homeland, but also from some other regions, mainly coastal trade hubs, and regions with gold/silver mines.Or some other places with some other resources
    Technically, you are absolutely correct. However, the RTW Vanilla solution to this was to give you the same benefits that the faction who built up those regions was getting. They build the traders, markets, ports, farms...you come in and take them and get all the trade and benefit for nothing. This really wasn't how nations expanded and handled new territories, by and large, unless they just pillaged them and left. The Romans, Greeks, and Eastern nations may have taken over the regions, but the benefit they reaped was from taxation and tribute.....not the trade itself, which they left in place.

    RS2 endeavors to correct the 'Vanilla way' by giving you tax bonuses in areas you conquer, and small trade bonuses when YOU actually build something. The concept being that you TAX trade, you don't own it anywhere accept in your own lands. So we have buildings in place that allow you to raise taxes....outside the normal RTW tax raising mechanism's. But they aren't quite as 'mean' as the taxes RTW allows you to adjust. Still, if you push it, people will get pissed.

    The theory of this system is that trade is much harder to grow than taxes.....in fact, trade can be static for a long time...or even diminishing, and yet taxes can be raised and lowered very easily on what trade there is. So every faction is essentially taxing a finite amount of trade, which grows slowly, and as they expand they need more and more taxes to make up for the limited amount of trade. The result at end turn, if you do a load of spending in one turn, is a deficit in trade profit....because you've exceeded the value of the trade with your taxes. It can then take a few turns to recover from this overspending...sometimes, a lot of turns.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  3. #143
    Chernish's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    dream city Ukek, Golden Horde
    Posts
    568

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    dvk901
    The theory of this system is that trade is much harder to grow than taxes..
    I think this is incorrect. Trade is growing much faster than taxation, because it is one of the sources of taxes, along with the production. As soon as there is something to sell - people are starting to trade. If they impose high taxes - trade will die. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in Russia sold everything and everyone. Trade has grown - although the production and taxes fell!

    The construction of markets and roads is investment in the development of trade - so it must grow regardless of who owns the province.In antiquity the state itself was often a party to trade - in the Hellenistic countries (Ptolemies), in Rome, etc. And income does not come from the taxation of trade, but from the trade itself.

    I think your most important achievement in the economy is not playing with trade and taxes - but the introduction of "budget spending on social services" - to maintain the circuses, the aqueducts, schools and temples. The more developed structures - the greater the cost. Theoretically, we can (and should!) Estimate, as military spending (maintaining the barracks, walls, etc.) and social goals exceed income and the empire will collapse under its own weight. In other words, calculate the "limits to growth". This is a very important point setting the strategic balance of the game. Best regards!

    Actually I already want to see how it all works in the game :-)
    Do what must be and let be what will

  4. #144
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Well, yes and no......in our present day, where people go to college to study the ins and outs of economics and how economies work....yes, you are correct that nowadays governments (some of them, anyway) understand that over-taxation with ruin the economy. But in the Era of RS2, economics wasn't something people really studied....they just 'did it' to survive. And Empires wanted to control trade because it meant power over people and taxes for the governments coffers.

    "Caesar Augustus was considered by many to be the most brilliant tax strategist of the Roman Empire. Augustus' public revenue reforms had a great impact on the subsequent success of the Empire. Augustus brought a far greater portion of the Empire's expanded land base under consistent, direct taxation from Rome, instead of exacting varying, intermittent, and somewhat arbitrary tributes from each local province as Augustus' predecessors had done. This reform greatly increased Rome's net revenue from its territorial acquisitions, stabilized its flow, and regularized the financial relationship between Rome and the provinces, rather than provoking fresh resentments with each new arbitrary exaction of tribute. The measures of taxation in the reign of Augustus were determined by population census, with fixed quotas for each province. Citizens of Rome and Italy paid indirect taxes, while direct taxes were exacted from the provinces."

    As evidenced here, Augustus was the first ruler to actually organize a state into a form that even remotely resembles a 'modern government' in terms of taxation. Before his time, 'tax farmers' were used, and that whole system was distinctly corrupt and full of flaws. Later, one of the Emperors...I think Marcus Aurelius (but I'm not sure right now), was the first Emperor to realize that lowering taxes would increase trade, and he restored considerable prosperity to the Empire. In RS2, we've tried to reflect this by creating a building that's built in Rome that represents 'Tax Reform', whereby the Emperor gains a trait that lowers taxes and increases trade, and this is then passed on to all Governors who (based on their own abilities to govern) either accept the reforms (with the trade gains and lowered taxation) or refuse to implement them ( and thus incur the wrath of the people).

    We have in fact implemented some very interesting traits that control Faction Leaders, and will require the player's attention. Because a bad Faction Leader will pass on his bad leadership to all governors over time and ruin your faction economically. It will make choosing an Heir very important, and it may require 'removing' your faction leader.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  5. #145
    Chernish's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    dream city Ukek, Golden Horde
    Posts
    568

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    We have in fact implemented some very interesting traits that control Faction Leaders, and will require the player's attention. Because a bad Faction Leader will pass on his bad leadership to all governors over time and ruin your faction economically. .
    Wow! So this is another - second - your remarkable achievement! I saw an example of such a leader`s influence to the game in 1994 in the "Genghis Khan II" Japanese company KOEI. Congratulations! This mod more and more wins in my eyes!
    Do what must be and let be what will

  6. #146
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    In truth, credit for the initial idea of how to do this goes to 'The Sloth', who proposed a system whereby a Leader was judged on his capabilities based on traits that awarded either People love, troops love, nobility loves him, or that each hated him. This provided the groundwork for a system that Calvin and I had often talked about...ie, a system that could effectively cause a faction-wide slump in your economy, or even a depression. So, basically, how this works is that the Faction Leader gains traits, and the system of people\troops\nobles checks to see whether these traits are 'desirable' or not. If they are desirable, the people\troops\nobles incrementally like him more and more, and HIS popularity is passed on to all characters in the game in the form of a trait that increases national prosperity. But, if the Faction Leader is a stooge....a coward, a Harsh Ruler, insane, drinks too much, depraved, lazy, etc....all the various groups like him less and less, to a point where they want to get rid of him. The resulting traits gained by all other characters represent a faction-wide 'attitude' of poor management, selfishness, corruption and disloyalty...causing an economic slump.

    At that point, players will want to make decisions about the future. Like choosing a very good successor...or at least the best one possible....and then sending their Leader on a suicide mission somewhere to remove him. His removal will cause a 'reversal' in the system and eventually restore a better overall situation.

    It is at present a bit rough and non-specific faction-wise or culture-wise, but in time we'll improve on it.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  7. #147

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    This guy obviously got it all wrong!!







    whereas things are a bit better here:




    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  8. #148
    Chernish's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    dream city Ukek, Golden Horde
    Posts
    568

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    At that point, players will want to make decisions about the future. Like choosing a very good successor...or at least the best one possible....and then sending their Leader on a suicide mission somewhere to remove him. .
    Heh, heh, this looks like a system which operated in Medieval Total War I. I loved it, game with such a system becomes a kind of "genetic RPG"
    Do what must be and let be what will

  9. #149
    Tesla's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    That's really nice, can't wait to see how it actually plays


  10. #150
    Siegfriedfr's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    France
    Posts
    454

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Just to clarify the system : did you manage to make trade Income go to zero in a conquered settlement until a "tax building" is built ? Or trade is just reduced until you build your own faction's improvements.

  11. #151
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    W. Macedonia, Greece/Hellas
    Posts
    5,361

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfriedfr View Post
    Just to clarify the system : did you manage to make trade Income go to zero in a conquered settlement until a "tax building" is built ? Or trade is just reduced until you build your own faction's improvements.
    The game is very balanced the financial system for every faction going well.

    For your questions now, i think is the second

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  12. #152
    Darkside's Avatar Miles
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    WOW that's quite a bit of traits for those leaders.

    I wonder, is it possible to remove the limit of 8 ancillaries? Or perhaps expand it to say 10 or 12?
    "So parents...hold on to your hats...the federal government is gonna give you 400 dollars for every child you have...so if you've got 1,000 kids...you're on freaking easy street. That's where you go, what is the government thinking? I mean wha, what do Congressmans' children eat -- MITES?!? All 400 dollars does is remind me how screwed I am; You'd be better off if you're Congressman just came to your door, and pissed on your foot."

    BSADDB, RIP Brooster (09/2007)

  13. #153
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Airstrip One
    Posts
    4,415

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    In truth, credit for the initial idea of how to do this goes to 'The Sloth', who proposed a system whereby a Leader was judged on his capabilities based on traits that awarded either People love, troops love, nobility loves him, or that each hated him. This provided the groundwork for a system that Calvin and I had often talked about...ie, a system that could effectively cause a faction-wide slump in your economy, or even a depression. So, basically, how this works is that the Faction Leader gains traits, and the system of people\troops\nobles checks to see whether these traits are 'desirable' or not. If they are desirable, the people\troops\nobles incrementally like him more and more, and HIS popularity is passed on to all characters in the game in the form of a trait that increases national prosperity. But, if the Faction Leader is a stooge....a coward, a Harsh Ruler, insane, drinks too much, depraved, lazy, etc....all the various groups like him less and less, to a point where they want to get rid of him. The resulting traits gained by all other characters represent a faction-wide 'attitude' of poor management, selfishness, corruption and disloyalty...causing an economic slump.

    At that point, players will want to make decisions about the future. Like choosing a very good successor...or at least the best one possible....and then sending their Leader on a suicide mission somewhere to remove him. His removal will cause a 'reversal' in the system and eventually restore a better overall situation.

    It is at present a bit rough and non-specific faction-wise or culture-wise, but in time we'll improve on it.
    I have just read this and it is very interesting. Is it possible to script it so that an appalling faction leader triggers a civil war event?

  14. #154
    Darkside's Avatar Miles
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Indeed that's a good question! That would make for an awesome gaming experience, and would add to authenticity (at least as far as the later republic and empire goes).
    "So parents...hold on to your hats...the federal government is gonna give you 400 dollars for every child you have...so if you've got 1,000 kids...you're on freaking easy street. That's where you go, what is the government thinking? I mean wha, what do Congressmans' children eat -- MITES?!? All 400 dollars does is remind me how screwed I am; You'd be better off if you're Congressman just came to your door, and pissed on your foot."

    BSADDB, RIP Brooster (09/2007)

  15. #155
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    W. Macedonia, Greece/Hellas
    Posts
    5,361

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by Incontinenta Buttox View Post
    I have just read this and it is very interesting. Is it possible to script it so that an appalling faction leader triggers a civil war event?
    I don't know if a faction leader will cause a civil war , but the mod have already a civil war on the campaign script..

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  16. #156
    Taelok's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,193

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    From the pictures it seems as though a good, or bad, faction leader will have a notable effect on empire income / stability. Is this the case?

    If so, is it also the case for all factions?

    Only dream I ever have. Is it the surface of the Sun?
    Everytime I shut my eyes, it's always the same.

  17. #157

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Yes, and yes.

  18. #158

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Not related to anything you're saying, but I just noticed the picture of the campaign map in the corner- zoomed in. I love the way you can see the terrain elevation!

    Roma Surrectum 2- THE mod for Rome Total War- Visit the forums!



  19. #159

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man With No Name View Post
    Not related to anything you're saying, but I just noticed the picture of the campaign map in the corner- zoomed in. I love the way you can see the terrain elevation!
    well sorry to burst your bubble but the this was pre tones redoing of the campaign map, so there is a new mini map now

  20. #160
    Darkside's Avatar Miles
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: Roma Surrectum II: Economic System

    I myself have noticed a hard pattern to break when it comes to the development of personal traits for a leader/family member: let's say you start out with a faction leader that has the trait 'unusual.' You know, hooting like an owl, what have you. Or even has the trait social drinker, with it's cool +1 command ability. In a large majority of the campaigns I have played, these traits very quickly degenerate into the more extreme and dismal versions ---for example, unusual within the space of less than a decade becomes stark raving mad (or whatever it's called) and my social drinker suddenly becomes a drunkard which dulls his abilities across the board.

    It seems to me that if a faction leader's abilities are checked by the entire faction, the things that might appear 'quirky' in his younger years will subsequently degenerate into an outright loathing by his subjects within a short period of time.

    I guess my question is, will you find, more often that not, that your leader has a set of mixed values that balance each other out, or will you end up with either an adored and respected man or a potential nero/caligula?

    Oh PS: does anybody know what exactly manipulates these different traits? That is something I have never figured out at all.
    "So parents...hold on to your hats...the federal government is gonna give you 400 dollars for every child you have...so if you've got 1,000 kids...you're on freaking easy street. That's where you go, what is the government thinking? I mean wha, what do Congressmans' children eat -- MITES?!? All 400 dollars does is remind me how screwed I am; You'd be better off if you're Congressman just came to your door, and pissed on your foot."

    BSADDB, RIP Brooster (09/2007)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •