LIVE8 a waste

[JP226]

that's what I said, a waste. What are these stupid celebrity's thinking? A concert to raise our taxes?

Africa has had billions and billions of dollars pounds, euros whatever, thrown at it. They really think this concert is going to fix that mess? I'll tell you how to fix africa, get rid of the corruption. If the UN wasn't run by a bunch of corrupt thugs, this would be a good project for them. If they had some real teeth and weren't run by a democracy of dictators and greedy bearucrats they could do it. Force government leaders to resign and install real working democracies. This idea to throw more cash at them is idiotic. It shows how far outside the real world idiots like these are.

[Maximus I]

well im not a big expert in africa but still i have to say my opinion. Remember some years back the south africa revolted and threw the british farmers off their country? This thing just pissed me off. Those farmers were creating jobs for them (not well payed but atleast enough to live)they just start revolts and throw the peace keepers but only want that the world give them money ( lots and loat of them) my solution will be just leave them there and let them sort their things. Don't get me wrong i'm not a sadistic sick bastard but still africans should learn to support themselves.

[JP226]

I could agree with leaving them alone and letting them solve there own problems.

[internationalist]

I hardly think just leaving them alone is a solution-one must remember that alot of the problems that plague africa today were an indirect effect of imperialism and that the reactions of black africans, such as throwing farmers off their land, as happened to one of my best friends from Namibia, is simply a rash reaction because the africans have suffered for so long under the white yoke. They view the white farmers, even though they are the ones with teh knowledge to run the farms, as oppressors, becuase the white farmers are typically better off financially. Granted, Africans have to take responsibility for their own affairs, and one cannot blame simply the effects of colonisation and imperialism, but by the same token they cannot be ignored when dealing with Africa, and that leaves the west some responsibility to aid the Africans.

[dgoodman]

I actually work at an international development firm, and yes Africa has plenty of problems, but you guys have no idea what you are talking about. Alot of their problems are based on imperialism and the creation of historically irrational borders. Tribes and civilizations have been grouped together and split up at the whims of europeans with no care of the consequences as long as those colonies were able to be subdued by european power and provided markeds and raw materials. Many areas have been developing rapidly but the threat of Aids and disease is hurting development. By cutting off aid we would be killing millions and reneging on our promice to try and fix what our anscestors helped to create. Im not saying Africa was well off before imperialism, but if we didnt screw up their continent so much, we wouldnt be worring about many of the problems we face today.

[RusskiSoldat]

I hardly think just leaving them alone is a solution-one must remember that alot of the problems that plague africa today were an indirect effect of imperialism and that the reactions of black africans, such as throwing farmers off their land, as happened to one of my best friends from Namibia, is simply a rash reaction because the africans have suffered for so long under the white yoke.

Boohoo.
All of south America and most of Asia were under the white yoke, as well as Africa was, and yet they seem to be actualy improving over time.

[JP226]

ok what you are saying is that africa's problems are caused by europe, so you want the very epople who caused the prblems to fix the problems?

Let them fight it out, redraw there own borders, settle down then open up with trade. They know there own problems better than anyopne else, let them fix it.

sorry for the spelling, just got back from the bar and saw this on tv there...

[Kanaric]

This post is flame bait, if you want to actually discuss something you should at least try to use your brain before making a quasi-flame post that looks like it was written by a drunken 17 year old red neck who is pissed off because his cousin just filed for divorce.

This topic is a waste of bandwidth and forum space.

[JP226]

First off, i'm a native american aka indian, so that counts out me being a redneck, second of all, i'm not 17, hence the "got back from the bar" quote. And finally, this has been bothering me since this started. Why can't you post a counter argument instead of crying and whining that this is flame bait? This is a real problem. It's an argument btwn self reliance and throwing money at a problem and hoping it works out.

[internationalist]

ok what you are saying is that africa's problems are caused by europe, so you want the very epople who caused the prblems to fix the problems?

Let them fight it out, redraw there own borders, settle down then open up with trade. They know there own problems better than anyopne else, let them fix it.

sorry for the spelling, just got back from the bar and saw this on tv there...

Yes. I am saying that. The Europe of the imperial age is hardly the Europe of today! Its simply barbaric to say that they should "fight it out" and saying that the best way is to "let them fix it." I dont think that any Western government has the magic solution to the problems in Africa, but one must think of the beginning of "For Whom the Bell Tolls" when looking for reasons to solve the problems in Africa:
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

[Belisarius]

First off, i'm a native american aka indian, so that counts out me being a redneck, second of all, i'm not 17, hence the "got back from the bar" quote. And finally, this has been bothering me since this started. Why can't you post a counter argument instead of crying and whining that this is flame bait? This is a real problem. It's an argument btwn self reliance and throwing money at a problem and hoping it works out.

That was flame bait, I suggest you all calm down. If you want to discuss the issue do it in a civil manner. If you dont, it will just get closed. How about posting some articles and facts to stimulate a proper discussion... :wink:


Anyway, cool it guys!

[smack]

This post is flame bait, if you want to actually discuss something you should at least try to use your brain before making a quasi-flame post that looks like it was written by a drunken 17 year old red neck who is pissed off because his cousin just filed for divorce.

This topic is a waste of bandwidth and forum space.

Yes, your post is flame bait Kanaric And it worked.

Africa:

Clearly throwing money (or more typically lending money) at a whole continent is largely wasteful of money. Also, feeding people leads to more people (see Ishmael), not less hunger. So what can we do, compassionately, that will have best effect?

There was recently an article somewhere (Christian Science Monitor maybe?) on the 4 stages of becoming a fully industrialized and modern nation, as applied to several cases of African governments. If we want to raise the standard of living in Africa, we must find ways to complete the thing we started: Modernizing the governments and industries. Leaving Africa alone now is irresponsible. Yet, I do think that Africa will be fine in the very long run (say, 100 years). There are countries on the continent taking the lead, and others will follow suit.

[Pra]

Boohoo.
All of south America and most of Asia were under the white yoke, as well as Africa was, and yet they seem to be actualy improving over time.

Who is the they? Please elaborate on your ambiguity.

Moreover, though your comparison might seem analogous at the surface, you forget to mention the fact that the Europeans all sat down and deliberated on how they should split up Africa, regardless of the concerns of the conquered peoples. The countries, and possibly the conflicts, that are occuring now in Africa are a result of those grave events that occured in Europe.

ok what you are saying is that africa's problems are caused by europe, so you want the very people who caused the problems to fix the problems?

Let them fight it out, redraw there own borders, settle down then open up with trade. They know there own problems better than anyopne else, let them fix it.

sorry for the spelling, just got back from the bar and saw this on tv there...

Isn't it ethically correct for a people who had caused a problem to fix it? What you are encouraging is anarchy. Innocents will die, the strong will rule and we will see some of the worst crimes commited by people against others.

It would be like throwing the match into the gun-powder keg.

However, we must not repeat the mistakes of the JFK administration in trying to fix the impoverished states. Indeed I feel Smack's solution/guidelines are probably the best way to assuage the problem; (and just leaving the region, without a semblance of a guidance would exacerbate it.)

[Da Skinna]

Do you half-baked retards know how Africans fight? They fight dirty, and they fight with the absolute worst human intentions, because they've been let to do it.

Letting them redraw their own borders is letting them ethnically annhilate each other.

Africa today is white man's fault yesterday. And now is the world's problem today. We need to help them, and get not necessarily democratic governments, but able ones up to develop the countries so they can be self-sufficient and contributing to Africa whole.

But I agree that the UN is run by self-indulgent cashwhores who are bureaucratically stopping any help to Africa to line their and their organization's/country's pockets.

[Maximus I]

Do you half-baked retards know how Africans fight?

Jesus crist can you people stop insulting everyone else. Because of you the flames start.If you can't say in normal manner don't post at all.

[Pra]

But I agree that the UN is run by self-indulgent cashwhores who are bureaucratically stopping any help to Africa to line their and their organization's/country's pockets

One could also say this of the US gov't. Self-indulgent cashwhores is quite an emotive and tasteless term, so please elaborate on your descriptions in a more conciliatory manor.

[Da Skinna]

Sorry for the way I put some things, I got home from work and I really need a goddamn foot rub...

Anyhoo, the thing I said about the UN is that the security council, maybe not Annan, is a gang of pilferers. They bury that under bureaucracy while procrastinating on what's important and taking in hundreds of thousands of nation donated dollars at a time. They reflect the countries they come from pretty well, either gunshy, sleezy, or just sandy pussies.

[wilpuri]

Tribes and civilizations have been grouped together and split up at the whims of europeans with no care of the consequences as long as those colonies were able to be subdued by european power and provided markeds and raw materials.

But can't they just get along? Does this mean multi-culturalism doesn't work?

[S.P.Q.R.]

To cut short, I hope that Live 8 (with Pink Floyd reunited after 25 years )
will raise enough money to open at least a hospital.
That would be already a considerable effort.
Although I am merciless with my own people I try to avoid hypocrisy and whenever I can a try to help who is in need.

The thing is that I personally distrust aid agencies so I reather see my contribution directed to theyr hands.

[the Black Prince]

live8's real benefit isn't going to be in money raised, but in awareness raised. the amount of coverage the lead up to these concerts has had, well, simply speaking if you don;tnow know about the problems in africa, you musdt have been living under a rock somewhere.

thats the work of the concerts, its up to us to lobby our governments to do thweir bit, by cancelling dept, and up to the african nations to help themselves, by sortinmg out all the issues of corruption that plague so many of their governments