You deceitful bastards...

[SakyaIllidan]

He has invulnerable_general cheat defined in campaing script ^^

[Halie Satanus]

But hey ho, whatever you do with your personal mod is upto you. If you are gonna mod Thermopylae then don’t forget to add the Thespians, Thebans, and helots (?).

Three years late but I just spotted this, I'm nothing if not observant.

It is stated (somewhere) that the scripted battle is set on the last day, after everyone but the last few remaining Spartans has gone home for tea. More specifically it is after the Persians have nipped though the secret pass in the hills and Leonidas and his bro's are making their last stand.

There, I do hate lose ends..

[Turtler]

I know Aeons have passed since this thread was opened, but I felt I should weigh in. While I am as much a Westerner and Western fanboy as anybody, sometimes it feels good to be bad, and the stomping juggernaut. Especially since I like their faction color scheme in here (Green and Yellow! Yay!). And I do have to say this: It makes the Persian opening moves hilariously exploitable.

Just in order to give some yuks, I decided to experiment on if Xerxes really was invincible. By keeping the rest of his army back while he marched up by his lonesome to attack.

For the record, his unit *Demolished* the regular Spartan Hoplites (it wasn't even close to an even fight), and engaged with Leonidas and smacked his unit a good one as the two clawed at each other until the bitter end with the greatest military force assembled in world history looking. As it turned out, after having the rest of his bodyguard wiped out he *DID* die, but only after wiping out nearly three quarters of the Spartans. At which point I just overwhelmed and flanked. The Greeks lost significantly more than I did even with fighting with one hand and both feet tied behind my back. Replays have been even more bloody since I use Xerxes's bodyguards to smash through the secondary unit and then pin and envelop Leonidas. Thus leaving me with an actual faction leader when the blood's cooled and an all but intact army.

Soooo... what does that make Thermopylae then? A metaphor for the overwhelming power of totalitarian government crushing down on the plucky, ill-advised rebels? For all the talk about how winning Thermopylae would weaken the atmosphere of the mod and story, I have to say that has to be a close comparison.

Personally, I think making Xerx kill-able at Thermopylae is perfectly fine (even though it is probably years too late for that). I think it could be a decent "best case scenario" for the Spartans, and maybe an incentive to make a massive, suicidal dash towards the enemy HQ in an attempt to cut the cat off at the head and kill the Padishah and decapitate the leadership of the Empire and the invasion force. Ala the attempts to kill Ieyasu at Osaka. Rather than simply putting their backs against the cliff (my preferred strategy) and/or the map end and holding position while the human waves was over you.

Yes, Xerxes did not historically die at Thermopylae. But then historically he didn't lose 50~% of his army there, he did not kill dozens of hoplites by his lonesome (he was highly trained in combat like most Persian leadership but there are no indications that he was ever *that* good, killing a lion or no). And So and So and So on. For a mod whose main version is explicitly styled after the movie/comic book and which features the best Greek soldiers fighting all but naked while Xerxes is a God-king and bondage specialist, I don't think historical concerns are going to be weighted so heavily.

Also, for the record:

Three years late but I just spotted this, I'm nothing if not observant.

It is stated (somewhere) that the scripted battle is set on the last day, after everyone but the last few remaining Spartans has gone home for tea. More specifically it is after the Persians have nipped though the secret pass in the hills and Leonidas and his bro's are making their last stand.

There, I do hate lose ends..

That still doesn't explain leaving out the Thespians. They outright refused to leave the pass when Leonidas ordered everybody else out, and the 700 of them were by far the largest force of "Last Standers" (compared to the 298 Spartans) .

[Halie Satanus]

Hi.

As I remember when we were making the mod we realized there was no way to please everyone. To that end we tried to stick as close to history as the game engine would allow, yes there were ways we could have made it closer to historic events but we were also trying to create a mod representation of the movie.

You're right playing as the Persians, especially in the scripted battle you have a massive advantages, but the truth is we only decided to even make the Persians playable at the last minute and there wasn't really any effort or much thought put into them other than simply making them playable. At the last minute we realized we could and they'd be fun, so we just did.

I think I played maybe three campaigns as the Persians and found it pretty tough going after awhile, of course you can build a hefty navy, load up a handful of full stacks and walk through the back door taking all of southern Greece before the Warlords know what's hit them. But that's just cheating. Fun though..

[Turtler]

Hi.

Hello to you too!

As I remember when we were making the mod we realized there was no way to please everyone.

That I can understand. It's always a constant, given the nature of modding and the nature of people who play mods (who are human, unless I missed the memo and angels have started taking up the game).

To that end we tried to stick as close to history as the game engine would allow, yes there were ways we could have made it closer to historic events but we were also trying to create a mod representation of the movie.

I understand, and I wasn't trying to knock that. (In fact, with the release of the sequel it makes me ponder about that even more...). Still, no rule that people can't axe the God-King, and even moreso I think even with that I do think some of the bitter "It's a Bug and that bothers me/It's not a bug and the fact that you think so bothers me" is more of a turnoff than any of the specific balancing choices. You're never going to be able to please everyone and you're never going to be able to live up to *insert ideal here*, so just trying and doing a good job is enough. It's just when I see things like the misstatement about the Thespians in the previous post (who either fled immediately like everybody else in the movie or stayed to the end in history) or some of the logic about making Xerxes unkillable that made me ponder.

You're right playing as the Persians, especially in the scripted battle you have a massive advantages,

That I would expect nothing less of. After all, that was the case both in history and in the movie. So it's fitting, and it isn't nearly as easy as it might think (what with half the map being rebels, the Greek League being able to consolidate, etc).

but the truth is we only decided to even make the Persians playable at the last minute and there wasn't really any effort or much thought put into them other than simply making them playable. At the last minute we realized we could and they'd be fun, so we just did.

Well, I thank you for the option. I really didn't expect that, especially given the care to how the different versions of the battle and their aftereffects turn out (Greeks retaking Athens in the Greek version, Greeks fleeing from Athens and it getting taken over by Rebels in the Persian one). But with that in mind, it does make me think of that.

I think I played maybe three campaigns as the Persians and found it pretty tough going after awhile, of course you can build a hefty navy, load up a handful of full stacks and walk through the back door taking all of southern Greece before the Warlords know what's hit them. But that's just cheating. Fun though..

Pffh. Cheating. We call that "Good Commanding."

Still, already did that. And even with that in mind it is a pain given the lack of siege equipment. And even with Xerxes's army almost unscathed he *is* in the middle of nowhere surrounded by rebels while everybody else is across the Aegean picking their collective (misshapen?) noses. So getting out of that can be a bit of a pickle. Still not as fun or challenging as the Greeks IMHO, but that's not surprising. And it is still fun.

[Halie Satanus]

I'm not sure, it's been a long time, but I think Xerxes is only invincible in the opening battle and was then scripted to a kill-able version. Largely irrelevant as he always runs north (that might have been scripted too).

The Greeks are tough, there are a things you can do to make life easier. Disbanding your navy from the start, ships have high upkeep and that money can be used to recruit troops build better barracks. Expending Sparta/Athens/Corinth/Thebes to get hoplites as quickly as possible. Taking the island just north of Athens as there is a land bridge the Persians can sneak across if you don't hold them at Larissa. > Getting to Larissa (north of Delphi) before the Persian's and moving armies north from there quickly is key. Lose Larissa and it's almost impossible to stop them entering southern Greece.

[Turtler]

I'm not sure, it's been a long time, but I think Xerxes is only invincible in the opening battle and was then scripted to a kill-able version. Largely irrelevant as he always runs north (that might have been scripted too).

On occasion I've seen him join the fray when playing as the Greeks in an otherwise unmodded game. Albeit he has never actually died otherwise. Likewise, he died plenty during that experiment I did, so I'm not sure what to so.

The Greeks are tough, there are a things you can do to make life easier.

I know indeed. My Greek campaign- if anything- often goes a lot better than my Persian one by dints of their quality.

Disbanding your navy from the start, ships have high upkeep and that money can be used to recruit troops build better barracks.

Certainly, but I can also use the ships to cover ground faster and access a few areas that I outright can't otherwise (hello Aegean Islands). That helps me head off the mauled Thermopylae stack (the times it survives), and gives me more basing for operations elsewhere. On top of helping with the money issue.

So I usually leave just a transport force. Enough for me to sail around and hop, but not a full stack battle fleet (that would come later).

Expending Sparta/Athens/Corinth/Thebes to get hoplites as quickly as possible.

Athens pretty much falls into my hands after Thermopylae, so that's not an issue. The rest usually fall soon enough with some clever sieging.

Taking the island just north of Athens as there is a land bridge the Persians can sneak across if you don't hold them at Larissa. > Getting to Larissa (north of Delphi) before the Persian's and moving armies north from there quickly is key. Lose Larissa and it's almost impossible to stop them entering southern Greece.

I know indeed. Holding those chokepoints- if it comes down to that- is pretty much my main defensive zone against the Persian invasion. Behind those I can build up my core territories while continuing my land grabs further afield (like swimming across the Aegean and clawing my way up the Peninsula with amphibious operations). And of course getting ready to push further and further up. The confined territory suits the Greeks well.

Again, thanks for making this mod- complaints and nitpicking aside- because it is great.

[Halie Satanus]

Same, I always kept one ship for those early hops to the small islands around Athens.

Athens falls quickly after Marathon, it's a must to get good cavalry.

I remember playing one campaign where I got into such a war of contrition north of Larissa (at those choke points), it went on for weeks. Eventually I had to land an army behind the Persians just to distract them long enough to whittle away their front lines.

Again, thanks for making this mod- complaints and nitpicking aside- because it is great.

No worries, took a long time to finally get this one released, so long in fact I started and released Sicilia while this one was in hiatus. Ever played Sicilia?

[Yawyack]

Three years late but I just spotted this, I'm nothing if not observant.

It is stated (somewhere) that the scripted battle is set on the last day, after everyone but the last few remaining Spartans has gone home for tea. More specifically it is after the Persians have nipped though the secret pass in the hills and Leonidas and his bro's are making their last stand.

There, I do hate lose ends..

Ah, I must have missed that.

6 1/2 year conversation resolved!

[Halie Satanus]

If there was a medal for longest conversation with least posts this would be a contender..

[BHL 20]

If the persian berserkers were actually given the berserker ability, none of these smartasses would be able to win at thermopylae and xerxes wouldn't have to be invincible. :-P