BCR 1.05 Diplomacy

[TriforceV]

I know this idea is , but maybe we could still have universal peace. What about that??

I would also welcome this arrangement, However, there are some people who are unwilling to see reason and would prefer rather to go out in a blaze of glory right up till the very bitter end.

[Kaizer Merlox]

Agreed, I have tried to make peace with Georgia multi times, but he keeps on refusing, and he keeps on losing lands.

[Kavhan Isbul]

What is this - "ask and thou shalt receive"? It seems some rulers out there live under the illusion that if they nag the Georgian King long enough, he may agree to a peace. And then they call the Georgian King stubborn .

Fortunately or unfortunately, the events take place almost eight centuries prior to the hippy movement, so it is natural that some beligerents would prefer to keep fighting, as they find great entertainment in it.

[TriforceV]

What is this - "ask and thou shalt receive"? It seems some rulers out there live under the illusion that if they nag the Georgian King long enough, he may agree to a peace. And then they call the Georgian King stubborn .

Fortunately or unfortunately, the events take place almost eight centuries prior to the hippy movement, so it is natural that some beligerents would prefer to keep fighting, as they find great entertainment in it.

I never said anything about negotiating with you..
All I said was that you would not negotiate because your stance was made very clear to me,

And universal peace is a pipe dream!,

[Nakharar]

Lets be serious Universal Peace isnt going to happen. Universal Piece would only happen for nations to become bigger, richer and stronger and why do they become bigger, richer and stronger. To fight and win...

[garato]

this is the superhero from Khwarezm


my army crushed by that tough guy.


4 stars general- a rather of mediocre kinds.
I fought with Caliph with spicial abilities of survive and against less number in 3 times.
wtith huge damages in open field.(5 horsmen remain)
But in this case we see an attack on the fort.Imagine of wall of spiermen against horsemen troops. in one gate's space...
I talk nothing about some cheating,sure Kabir did nothing agaist the rules.
But I am so slowthinking and dull and cannot understand some things...

[Kaizer Merlox]

Well, Bowmen can be subtracted away, they are useless and just maybe add alitte tiredness to his general.

The main things that would kill his generals would be spears, and javalins if your an AI.

Also, it is like I said, in 1.05, Generals are very over powered, at least he didn't send an 8-10 star general at you, you woulda been smooshed with almost no kills.

Also, The most over powered general would be the Kypchak ones, with *Double* number of body guards at all time. The king always has 72 or some crazy stuffs.

[TriforceV]

this is the superhero from Khwarezm


my army crushed by that tough guy.


4 stars general- a rather of mediocre kinds.
I fought with Caliph with spicial abilities of survive and against less number in 3 times.
wtith huge damages in open field.(5 horsmen remain)
But in this case we see an attack on the fort.Imagine of wall of spiermen against horsemen troops. in one gate's space...
I talk nothing about some cheating,sure Kabir did nothing agaist the rules.
But I am so slowthinking and dull and cannot understand some things...

You know, I have to agree, I think its mighty weird that a 4 star general can completely obliterate a fort with that many troops in it, with only 8 deaths...,

Something just doesn't sit right, I can understand heroic victories, and the easy dispersal of ranged troops...
But this is after all a Fort Seige done by 17 general body guards against a whole volley of troops.. Unlike city seiges, where you can divide the forces, Fort seiges arn't as easy, especially considering the vast number of them.

I think it's fair Cyrus explain to us Exactly how he managed to win this heroic battle, if not to justify his claim, but maybe I can learn something from his sudden military genious.
Something doesn't smell right.., I agree.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have also been dealt amazing defeats, especially by Kaizer and last turn by garato. I still never really found the need to ask for an explanation, being fully aware of the AI inaptitude in battle. If we start asking now, then I am afraid that we will start requiring explanations pretty much every turn.
In a fort siege, if the army inside is much bogger than the forces outside, I have discovered that they sally, which can explain how Cyrus was able to route them with his general, by simply charging the infantry. Ahdaths, Nubians and Khorasani spearmen are very weak and usually get wiped out by the charge of even lesser cavalry units, let alone kataphrakts. It may have been difficult, but I can certainly see how it is doable.

[Kaizer Merlox]

Kahvan, Don't you even dare put his comparisons next to mine...

222 vs 595, My losses were 177.

188 vs 356, My losses 160

-------------------------------------------

17 vs 686, his losses... 8

Does that look any thing alike!?

The Shah general would have died from exhaustion. No way a general can kill that many men and be effective enough to defend it self from countless of fresh troops.

[TriforceV]

I have also been dealt amazing defeats, especially by Kaizer and last turn by garato. I still never really found the need to ask for an explanation, being fully aware of the AI inaptitude in battle. If we start asking now, then I am afraid that we will start requiring explanations pretty much every turn.
In a fort siege, if the army inside is much bogger than the forces outside, I have discovered that they sally, which can explain how Cyrus was able to route them with his general, by simply charging the infantry. Ahdaths, Nubians and Khorasani spearmen are very weak and usually get wiped out by the charge of even lesser cavalry units, let alone kataphrakts. It may have been difficult, but I can certainly see how it is doable.

Certainly?,
Also many of these enemies are not simply infantry, but consists of ranged horsemen, If he focused on the infantry the ranged horsemen would be firing their arrows at the enemy, if he focused on the horsemen, the infantry would eventually catch up to him, whats surprising is that 17 general body guards was able to kill all 686 troops, with only 9 deaths... yet I normally don't question heroic victories because I also understand the AI ineptitude.

But.., I also have my limits for example.

One of these defeats you suffered from Turks:
You had 2.7X as many troops, and they succeeded in killing 202 of the remaining troops.

Similarly according to garto, he won a heroic victory with 5X small troops then the ennemy

Now...
According to Cyrus He was able to completely wipe out an almost full stack of 686 troops with 17 general body guards.
Thats 40X as many troops?

I mean this just doesn't make any sense, for me to gauge, and infact if this kind of thing seems rather impossible. Not only that, but Cyrus apparently sent his general (only) to attack the Fort, with conviction that he would win..

I certainly wouldn't have attempted it.., but Cyrus not only attempted it out of the blue (where Evidence suggests he could have sent more aid), but he also won what seemed like an impossible victory.

He managed a feat that far surpasses any of the victories I've ever seen so far, and if legitimate in his victory questions the whole basis of ever making another Hotseat game in battlemode.
And all this comes from Cyrus who until just recently, never showed in this game or our last BC game any strategic genius prior to now.
I'm not suggesting that hes cheating, frankly I do not know, his victory still might be genuine... Nevertheless, in this case it's fair I ask the simple question of How, and why he was so confident in victory he only sent his general to seige the fort.

[Kaizer Merlox]

He also had the notation that he could have sent an army with his general.

I'm sorry for the double post, but I had an idea while driving around in my car.

Why don't we have 1 other person replay this battle? and see if it's just as easy for him to do it. As we all know. There isn't too many different ways he coulda done it. All he has is 1 general, and most than likely, he charged his general inside of that fort to kill every one.

Soo.. Any takers? if not, i'll do it. =p

[garato]

Kavhan,I can to illustrate by screenie if you ak me the battle in Georgia.
I had in fort my Caliph himself with special bodyguards. 19 horsmen.And 2 troops of spearmen.(1 reinforcments)
You had 2 troops spearmen only.Several troops of archers and several turcomans.And 2 stars general. I killed him first.And after all Caliph did survive with only 5 bodyguards!
The battle has occured in open field,becouse I attacked by reinforcment. I lost almoust all spiermen.Think youself.
After all I attacking Shah's army marching towardsTabriz.By Caliph's rest and 2 generals and a lot of beduins some spiermen arab cavalry2 stacks as well.I won but with huge damages.

[Cyrus Kabir]

Ok guys - it seems so that some of you don't trust my "strategic skill" to win a heroic victory ( a strange one; I admit), so I played the same battle again without any changes and recorded it with the help of Fraps and uploaded it on youtube so you can watch it.
Perhaps Iam not "good" in playing hotseats where I would always lose against the elite players like Kavhan or Triforce, but after playing some years in clans in Rome and Medieval Total War, I think Iam there good enough


Have fun and enjoy:
btw: I played the battle on very fast, so it could be possible to upload the video!




REP PLEASE

[Commander Ruunu]

Seems real enough for me and bodyguards die normal, for 1.05 where they were uber. +rep

[Kavhan Isbul]

Perhaps Iam not "good" in playing hotseats where I would always lose against the elite players like Kavhan or Triforce, but after playing some years in clans in Rome and Medieval Total War, I think Iam there good enough

Cyrus, I am afraid I need to correct you here - I am far from an elite player, as evidenced by the spectacular downfall of my faction in this hotseat. I am in the same boat with you of players that "never showed in this game or our last BC game any strategic genius", who need to prove to the pros here that we do not cheat every time we happen to deal them a minor setback.

I will watch the movie at home, as the firewall at work is blocking youtube, but I assume that this will put the issue to rest. I also hope that I will not have go through the same trouble of making a video an uploading it on youtube if I ever happen to win a heroic victory against garato or someone else, who may be convicned in his own invincibility and therefore suspect foul play at every loss.

[Kaizer Merlox]

Alright, i'm sold by this video you didn't do any thing, but sadly, it shows how bad the AI is now... that in a defending situation they wouldn't stick in their fort, but go for a suicidal attack.

I personally didn't think it was this strategic, as I had more faith in the AI than not to charge out in the field and die like that... More reasons to do an auto-resolve campaign sadly....

Any ways, I repped you for putting the time and effort to show us that yes, a general is all you need now for killing a full army. XD

[TriforceV]

Ok guys - it seems so that some of you don't trust my "strategic skill" to win a heroic victory ( a strange one; I admit), so I played the same battle again without any changes and recorded it with the help of Fraps and uploaded it on youtube so you can watch it.
Perhaps Iam not "good" in playing hotseats where I would always lose against the elite players like Kavhan or Triforce, but after playing some years in clans in Rome and Medieval Total War, I think Iam there good enough


Have fun and enjoy:
btw: I played the battle on very fast, so it could be possible to upload the video!

REP PLEASE

Well it's not exactly, the same stats as before, winning with only your general this time, nevertheless it's acceptable if you take into consideration the fact that it was played on very fast mode, and shown...

First, I'll apologize to you Cryus if I ever doubted your ability and give you a +rep for putting me in my place I was also unaware that armies send out their troops from the forts when they have superior numbers, as I've never actually attacked a fort with an inferior army before.

Nevertheless, it saddens me with respect to AI incompetence in battlemode, but there isn't really much one can be done about it.. another thing to consider in battle.

Anyways, let us return to the game

[Kaizer Merlox]

day by day, auto resolve looks like a better choice

[Kavhan Isbul]

I for one disagree with auto-resolve, because it is just as flawed as the battle mode, and it gives a huge advantage to heavier troops at the expense of HAs and archers. To me it is just as imbalanced, with the difference being that a huge aspect of the game is missing.

History is full of examples where armies of small numbers were able to win amazing victories against overwhelming odds, and this is in essence what happens when human players face off against the AI.

Also, I really do not see anything wrong with the strength of bodyguard units - to me it is not unrealistic that elite warriors, who have the best equipment and who have trained all their life are able to defeat a large amount of peasant conscripts. Most of the basic infantry units in BC are exactly that - peasant conscripts, forced into the army by their feudals. Is it unreasonable to expect them to be defeated by nobles most of the time?

I am sure we can have this debate forever, but to me it seems that switching from battle mode to auto resolve will just replace one imperfect solution with another equally imperfect one, in the process taking one of the most fun elements out of the game and reducing battles to a game of numbers and a little luck.