BCR 1.05 Diplomacy

[TriforceV]

Alright, this is the thread where you can post your complains, diplomacy, or general discussions regarding our BCR 1.05 campaign, please use this pose for anything you wish to talk about, with the exception of posting turns..

Thanks

[Kaizer Merlox]

Wow, your abit late with this one huh? =p

[TriforceV]

wel well-another cunning plan..As i suspect.I had pm from Gazni.*Iam you friend!I want to help-give me pass right and I ll crash Shah!*
And after all he gave instruction to egyptian...I guess the real author of the trap is our genius Napoleonoshvili Kavhanadze...

I wouldn't jump to conclusion about Ghanzi's loyalties, I said I don't expect him to help the situation, nor because he is against Abbasid or Friendly with the Shah.. on the contrary, I believe he might have his hands full with the Rajupts to really help us...

However, your assumptions will only help alienate the Ghanzi,.. Something that wouldn't be wise.

Finally in regards to them asking the Ayyubids to play their turn, most likely has nothing to do with the conflict in the East,.. Ayyubids and Ghanzi are far away.

Iam not the slave of anyone - Georgia asked me for help and I told him that I will help him, cause if Triforce will win this war we will all die - that is for sure.

I wouldn't go as far as calling you a slave Cyrus,
However it's quite clear from your actions, even before the buisness with the Abbasids that you had it in for me, when there was no logical reason to do so... seeing as your far from the conflct, and have nothing to gain by joining in this war against me.

Finally, your assertion that if I win this war would spell dire news for everyone is riddiculous. I on more then one occasions requestions Peace with the georgians, a peace they would not be entertain, I wanted alot less then what I currently hold.. and the World would have seen peace, instead because of his inability to comprimise, I constantly gain more ground, and cripple the georgians more, making my position stronger, not by desire, rather by neccesity and defence.

My diplomatic doors are always open, and I am eagerly awaiting representives to agree to a peace in exchange for some of Georgians lands back, and invation I have yet to recieve.
The obvious conclusion to this is completely the opposite of wanting to rule or control the world, and defend lands in Iraq, Georgia or Persia which i couldn't even fathem protecting let alone develope.

So enough of this bickering.., because if actions speak louder then words, then It's obvious who the aggressors are...

Georgia Attacked Me.
Georgia Attacked Abbasid.
Persia Attacked Abbasid
Persia has made it clear he wants to Attack me.
Ayyubids have Attacked me.
Turks have Attacked Georgia.

besides the Turks, every action shows that Persia, Georgia and Ayyubids are the aggressor.., In this conflict where everyone is against me.. I have never once declared war on any of them..

I said my peace.., And my point is clearly made

[Kaizer Merlox]

Well, in all technicalities, Georgia attacked me first. =p
Georgia attacked Kypchak
Georgia attacked Romans.

Jerusalem attacked me as well. (Which it was just really a flex in military might, which was very successful.)

Ghazni attacked Oman + Hindu land

I attacked the Romans first. XD

I was the first war, REMEMBER THAT! :O

[Kavhan Isbul]

How long do you think it will take until this thread surpasses the official game thread?

Anyway, just quickly on the topic of subbing - we agreed that anyone can choose whoever he wants to sub him up to a maximum of 3 consecutive turns. Garato made a big fuss about a turn which I subbed for the Persians, during which I did not attack him, but then did not have any problems contradicting himself by appointing Triforce to play his turn. I did not have a problem with Triforce controlling the Abbasids and I still do not - I accept that it is a part of the game and the challenge (if I wanted it easy I can still play single player campaigns).

Therefore, I do not understand the whole whining about Empedocles subbing Nakharar due to Nakharar's request.

[TriforceV]

Well, in all technicalities, Georgia attacked me first. =p

I attacked the Romans first. XD

I was the first war, REMEMBER THAT! :O

it is obvious wars are the chain reactions of previous vendetta's,
This would explain the conflict you may of had with Georgia, or the war I might of had with Ayyubid.

that they are natural develops of past grievances...
This is here nor there, when it comes to the MAIN conflict, in which other conflicts that have engulfed all the others..

This would I belive conclude to be, my conflict with Georgia.

Georgia is the clear aggressor,
And this is not a complicated matter, which questions why he never helped me with the Romans, or that he pretended to be my ally.

The Simple fact is he attacked me, unprovoked and without warning...
He might give claims that he was juste in some form or another.. but the fact that I was not even given a warning, or a hint that suggest I might be targeted by him prior to the invasion.. demonstrates beyond any doubt, that he started this war, and with clear malintent.

- Kingdom of Jerusalem

[Kaizer Merlox]

I think he is complaining due to the fact that

Georgia + Persia = friends and ally

Jerusalem + Abbasids now defenders and allies by default.

Ayyubids = Friends and ally of Georgia + Persia

Ghazni = Neutral still.

Ghazni + Ayyubids = Confusing problem (From garato's point of view)

Also...

There was a reason why Georgia attacked you. It was because of your smelly cheese and saving the frog population?

[TriforceV]

How long do you think it will take until this thread surpasses the official game thread?

Anyway, just quickly on the topic of subbing - we agreed that anyone can choose whoever he wants to sub him up to a maximum of 3 consecutive turns. Garato made a big fuss about a turn which I subbed for the Persians, during which I did not attack him, but then did not have any problems contradicting himself by appointing Triforce to play his turn. I did not have a problem with Triforce controlling the Abbasids and I still do not - I accept that it is a part of the game and the challenge (if I wanted it easy I can still play single player campaigns).

Therefore, I do not understand the whole whining about Empedocles subbing Nakharar due to Nakharar's request.

I don't think garto was suggesting that Emp subbing Nakharar's kingdom was something of illegal in concerns to the game,
I think he was speculating (mistakenly) that Ghanzi appoint Emp to sub his kingdom was a sign that he was part of the Persian-Georgian-Ayyubid confederacy,..

I don't belive this to be the case, but there is nothign wrong with speculating it

[TriforceV]

- I accept that it is a part of the game and the challenge (if I wanted it easy I can still play single player campaigns).

Ohh btw, on a completely different note
You know what game I found somewhat challenging in single player mode (strategically)..
EU3 (Europa Universals 3)

Its an awesome game, is somewhat complicate.. still worth a try if you havn't

[Kaizer Merlox]

Concerning the Abbasids, garato refused to help us against Triforce. Another reason of attacking the Abbasids was the reason that their empire is stretching into clearly persian territory. I will stop the war if garato gives me all cities on the iranian plateau (Shiraz, Isfahan, Kermanshah and Hamadan). Beside this I would also give his army an amnesty to leave the persian land without being attacked.
And btw Kaizer.. you are a slave, mostly the courtesan of Triforce, not me, cause you sell yourself to everyone if it would help you to survive so please stop this nonsense calling me a slave!

Hmmm... How do I say... How can you claim that the Abbasids were getting too close, when you are Seljuk Turk lands??? I mean, Let's think here.

A:You did not do a thing to help destroy the Seljuks, yet you say you have more claim to his lands than the Georgians and Abbasids who killed him off? lol.
B: You keep on complaining to him that he is too close to your lands, but he hasn't expanded any where near your native position.
C: You are one of the largest empires, due to the fact you are expanding uncontested with.
D: You are bullying a very small country about having lands that are next to his native borders. when they are VERY far away from your native lands.
For all I can say, You needed a justified reason to attack Abbasids. Which you got when your ally attacked another ally, so you went in for land grabs. As you have not even fought one major war yet. Unlike.... Every other person in this hotseat have. lol

and to me being a slave thing.
I didn't know attacking Georgia due to all of the Personal Vendetta I have to do so was being a slave to Triforce, If I was. I would be sending him all of my military units to fight you... Because we are all scared due to if Persia wins the war, the whole world will be in danger! Gasp! This is between Georgia and I, don't need your nose in western affairs, so if you want to. Please send the stacks you were going to send to jerusalem, to me so I can kill them off.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Triforce, I warned you in a PM that your obstinance in negotiating potential land distribution with me leads us down a dangerous path, but you obviously disregareded this warning, as you probably though I was just another naive rookie you could manipulate.

Considering how you backed out of every single deal before that, I simply concluded that it is better to have you as an enemy, instead of having you as an ally, who would eventually backstab me. And do not blame me for the Romans, because you actually played their last turn and obviously, set them up in a way to be destroyed quickly, similar to the way you just set up the Abbasids.

The reason I attacked prematurely was because I believed that I had to do it in order to save the Turks, as I certainly did not want to wait for you to become too powerful after taing over their lands. In retrospect, this part of my plan worked quite well - Kaizer survived and you were forced to give him back all settlements you took from him, as you needed to concentrate on me.

Of course, I had assumed that for saving his butt, Kaizer would be grateful and would try to help me in this war. As we all know, I was quite wrong, and I underestimated his complete lack of honor. I also underestimated his irrational fear of you, as now I know he does not have it in him to even attempt a counter attack against you, even if the odds are in his favor.

So to sum it up - you did not behave like an ally, and when you attacked Kaizer despite the deal you had with him, it also became obvious that your word is not worth much. This was later confirmed once and for all during our negotiations, which failed as you really do not consider diplomacy anything more than a method of deceiving other players.

In this hotseat, if nothing else, I learned which players are reliable and therefore could be my allies, and which players are completely unreliable and guaranteed to be traitors. There is no way I do not carry this knowledge over to future hotseats. This does not meant hat I will be seeking revenge, it just means that now I know you and Kaizer better, I will be very unlikely to fall for your tricks again.

[Kaizer Merlox]

Why does every one pair me with triforce... Don't you guys remember he destroyed my old capital...? -_-;;;

Even if I did join the war against Triforce, I would be right into war with Georgia, and by then. He would be a giant nation, and I would be crushed.

We are not allies by choice, but allies by FORCE.

As i said before, I was expecting myself to die rather fast, but things arn't just going that way.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Why does every one pair me with triforce... Don't you guys remember he destroyed my old capital...? -_-;;;

Even if I did join the war against Triforce, I would be right into war with Georgia, and by then. He would be a giant nation, and I would be crushed.

We are not allies by choice, but allies by FORCE.

As i said before, I was expecting myself to die rather fast, but things arn't just going that way.

I completely understand that facing destruction, you may have been forced into helping Triforce, but even so, it was your decision to do so. You could have instead chosen to fight until the end, but your own choice was to prefer survival in Triforce's shadow. Thus, you allowed yourself to be tied to Triforce, and the rest of just are simply pointing it out.

[Kaizer Merlox]

We all do respect, the key is of an empire is to survive, no matter what the circumstance is. Even if you are a 1 province kingdom that is a vassal, you are still succeeding at your goal.

Sure, getting big prevents you from dying but...

You simply do not lose when you surrender, you lose when your kingdom is destroyed.

[Kavhan Isbul]

We all do respect, the key is of an empire is to survive, no matter what the circumstance is. Even if you are a 1 province kingdom that is a vassal, you are still succeeding at your goal.

Sure, getting big prevents you from dying but...

You simply do not lose when you surrender, you lose when your kingdom is destroyed.

You are paraphrasing what I stated above - for you, the key is survival, and you would do whatever it takes to continue your participation in a campaign. I am not saying this is wrong, we just happen to differ on what is key in a game, where Empires and armies exist only in a small virtual world.

This is a philosophical debate, and for every person with my views, there would probably be another with yours.

But for practical purposes, I believe there is a clear trade-off between accomplishing your goals and winning players on your side. If you backstab someone, unless he is the most naive idiot in the world (I may be an idiot, and I may be naive, but not to this point), you will lose the guy's trust and what is worse, some players might actually be motivated by revenge, as irrational as it may be. So if you are going to do it, you have to ask yourself if this is justified or not - do I want to ruin any chances of future negotiations/cooperation with someone just to get ahead now? The answer will hopefully vary based on whether you feel the guy's trust is important or not, and on how much of an advantage you get.

So it is quite simple - it is all a matter of personal choice, in which you will have to sacrifice something - immediate success or long-term relationships with other players.

[garato]

All lands are persian in the world and all human race have originated from perain blood.One is Napoleon another is furer Adollf...

About Emp subbing nothing suprising -but only funny a bit.Perhaps,Gazni is thinking to become my ally but I doubt that Emp going attack persians and help to the ally of KoJ.(me) But he will be know very well what is disposition of my forces and other interesting things...
Well I thinking to invite and Kaizer and other gamers to sub me...More people -more good ideas.You see what I mean?
In principle,in rules Must be clear definition about subbing.This is a miss of admins.

[TriforceV]

Triforce, I warned you in a PM that your obstinance in negotiating potential land distribution with me leads us down a dangerous path, but you obviously disregareded this warning, as you probably though I was just another naive rookie you could manipulate.

Considering how you backed out of every single deal before that, I simply concluded that it is better to have you as an enemy, instead of having you as an ally, who would eventually backstab me. And do not blame me for the Romans, because you actually played their last turn and obviously, set them up in a way to be destroyed quickly, similar to the way you just set up the Abbasids.

The reason I attacked prematurely was because I believed that I had to do it in order to save the Turks, as I certainly did not want to wait for you to become too powerful after taing over their lands. In retrospect, this part of my plan worked quite well - Kaizer survived and you were forced to give him back all settlements you took from him, as you needed to concentrate on me.

Of course, I had assumed that for saving his butt, Kaizer would be grateful and would try to help me in this war. As we all know, I was quite wrong, and I underestimated his complete lack of honor. I also underestimated his irrational fear of you, as now I know he does not have it in him to even attempt a counter attack against you, even if the odds are in his favor.

So to sum it up - you did not behave like an ally, and when you attacked Kaizer despite the deal you had with him, it also became obvious that your word is not worth much. This was later confirmed once and for all during our negotiations, which failed as you really do not consider diplomacy anything more than a method of deceiving other players.

In this hotseat, if nothing else, I learned which players are reliable and therefore could be my allies, and which players are completely unreliable and guaranteed to be traitors. There is no way I do not carry this knowledge over to future hotseats. This does not meant hat I will be seeking revenge, it just means that now I know you and Kaizer better, I will be very unlikely to fall for your tricks again.

I would have more success trying to convince a rock of its intelligence, then I would have in trying to convince you of anything Kavhan,..>

You say you will know me better in future hotseas?,
Well It's a two-way street my friend, I've also learned alot about you and your true nature, -- all the hot air your spout about protecting the turks, hogwash, your so full of it, it wreaks from your pours....

You speak of honor and respect as if you merited some badge in which gives you the right to accuse others, But yet you are no better, not in the slightest... You may have fooled others, maybe even yourself... But not me, for I see you for what you truly are...

[Kaizer Merlox]

I would have more success trying to convince a rock of its intelligence, then I would have in trying to convince you of anything Kavhan,..

Wtf, Triforce, how dare you say my friend Billy does not have any intelligence, here, He can even type for you. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

K see? I put him down and he typed some really mean message to you. Rockist I call it... ROCKIST!!!

[Kavhan Isbul]

I would have more success trying to convince a rock of its intelligence, then I would have in trying to convince you of anything Kavhan,..>

You say you will know me better in future hotseas?,
Well It's a two-way street my friend, I've also learned alot about you and your true nature, -- all the hot air your spout about protecting the turks, hogwash, your so full of it, it wreaks from your pours....

You speak of honor and respect as if you merited some badge in which gives you the right to accuse others, But yet you are no better, not in the slightest... You may have fooled others, maybe even yourself... But not me, for I see you for what you truly are...

If you prefer to disregard what I wrote and insult my intelligence instead, that's fine.

I on the other hand find you a very smart person and as such I am sure you understand very well where I am coming from, even if you keep denying it in front of everyone else. I also understand very well that it is hard for you to lose or admit that you are/were wrong, and you are correct that it is a two-way street, as I am very similar to you in this regard.

However, the point of these hotseats as I understand it is not to clash my ego vs. yours, but to have fun. Lately, due to the way this hotseat has been conducted, there are a lot of things that make it less and less fun for me (I cannot speak of anyone else, though I have a feeling most of the other players are not enjoying it too much either, as demonstrated by the constant complaints). I just hope that you will find a way to administer the other one, which just started, better. I will also try to conduct myself better there as well. I know you can, and I am going to leave it at this for now.

When someone here is interested in seriously discussing some of my decisions in this hotseat, then let me know, and I will be happy to explain myself again.

[Kaizer Merlox]

Well, as it is, I take games by games, and not hold any grudges, As this creates the best way possible, unlike other people who wish to get on to fight the people who fought them last time. that gets rather boring.

I have a strange feeling in the newest 2.02 game that you will act just like Cyrus did to triforce in this game, and try to destroy me the kypchaks when you are the seljuks. stilll holding grudges.

and also... What are you talking about that I subbed Roman's last turn? I most certainly did not, The Roman Player played himself.