King of Swaziland

[meh_cd]

Well, quite easily really. Step 1: Declare that an oil field is under his palace. Step 2: Stop him selling any of this non-existent oil with a trade embargo. Step 3: Put some terrorists in there with some oil barrels. Step 4: Sit abck and watch the US invasion.
Or of course simply pass a Security Council resolution that he is an evil dictator in need of deposing, so we shoud all overthrow him; a pretty much unanimous pass...

You going to keep on bashing the US or are you going to get back on topic?

[Tom Paine]

It is on topic; there were two bits, one serious and one a joke,. Jeez, calm down... And my last post was solely on topic.

[Dromikaites]

You going to keep on bashing the US or are you going to get back on topic?

I thought he was on topic :-D

[meh_cd]

I thought he was on topic :-D

. . .

It was like his 3rd post on the same subject of the US invading on some stupid idea that Swaziland had oil. One was enough.

[Cobra]

Children, friends, adults, come on, lets no fight over 'oo killed 'oo. Or whether somethings on topic or not, because that isn't on topic. Lets get back to my tangent of debt relief, why don't we?

[Tom Paine]

Well I think I already opened up that one: It only works in democracies, because they have access to information about it. A dictator severely limits access to information so most people cannot find out about the debt relief and get equally taxed, but now all of it goes to the dictator and his forces of repression, that is the army, the euphemistically named security service, and the police, making him stronger than before. It fails as a strategy of democratization.

[Dromikaites]

Well I think I already opened up that one: It only works in democracies, because they have access to information about it. A dictator severely limits access to information so most people cannot find out about the debt relief and get equally taxed, but now all of it goes to the dictator and his forces of repression, that is the army, the euphemistically named security service, and the police, making him stronger than before. It fails as a strategy of democratization.

Argentina is a democracy but this didn't help them much. Its economy was quite inefficient and that had a lot to do with the government policies. For instance, there were taxes (I'm not sure - maybe stil are) for selling a product made in one state in another state (kind of internal customs duties). This resulted in reducing competition among Argentinian companies. Also the corruption was so high that a lot of taxes were not collected. I remember another blatant example about registering the cattle. Depending which statistics one would read, there would be diferent figures as an answer to the question "how many cows are there in Argentina?" The governmental body in charge with vaccination had more cows in its files than the tax collection agency :-D

[Dominicus of Byzantium]

Added to this that any material aid is left rotting in a holding bay because the local official hasn't received a bribe. Organisations delivering aid must be allowed access to any donated materials without having to go through officials.

[Tom Paine]

So we need to reform the aid system and deal with debt relief effectively. But if we do not cancel debts/give aid, then how can we take any moral ground at all? "We aren't doing anything to help, but if you do this expensive thing we will." Great. That is self-defeating.

[Epirote]

We all admit AID given to poor countries never reaches those who needed.

In Africa most of the AID given to victims of wars always ends up in the hands of the warlords, separatist, rebels, loyalist ... but never to the ones who were supposed to get it.
And warlords, dictators ......with the stolen aid just finance their future wars.

But can the international community do?
Sending troops is an iffective way of stoping that.

But who is willing to sucrifice soldiers for distant countries?
Who is going to voluntire for that? ( I am not)
And even or without resources(oil) you can`t just go there to "liberate" those countries.

[Tom Paine]

Debt relief is not aid. it is stpping people crippling their own economies because the World bank demands loans back that should have been given in aid effectively, rather than a governmental loan ineffectively thanks to repayment problems and this little thing called "unterest". I'm suree a nation like the US and all the G8 can forgo the debts owed them, or why are they on the G8 anyway?

[Dromikaites]

Debt relief is not aid. it is stpping people crippling their own economies because the World bank demands loans back that should have been given in aid effectively, rather than a governmental loan ineffectively thanks to repayment problems and this little thing called "unterest". I'm suree a nation like the US and all the G8 can forgo the debts owed them, or why are they on the G8 anyway?

It's not that simple, Squeakus. Those money could have not been lent in the first place. Governments in G8, who seem to be more responsible than those in the receiving countries, could have used that money at home. Why should the British taxpayer pay for the villa of some "colonel" or the Rolls Royce of some tribal leader?

[Tom Paine]

or how aobut to help some people get back on their feet after civil war? In Mozambique, there is a project called "Turning Swords into Ploughshares" funded by Christian Aid, swapping guns for goods that people need and cutting them up on the spot. That project has decommissioned many many arms since it began. it could not work without Western money. An example of our money being put to good use. the project is supported by the government of the nation; those turining in arms are not arrested or charged, and police are there to keep the peace. An example of Western money being put to good use in an African nation.

[Dromikaites]

or how aobut to help some people get back on their feet after civil war? In Mozambique, there is a project called "Turning Swords into Ploughshares" funded by Christian Aid, swapping guns for goods that people need and cutting them up on the spot. That project has decommissioned many many arms since it began. it could not work without Western money. An example of our money being put to good use. the project is supported by the government of the nation; those turining in arms are not arrested or charged, and police are there to keep the peace. An example of Western money being put to good use in an African nation.

Yep, and one that has real chances of success since money don't go through too many hands before reaching the final destination. Unfortunately, the debt is not accumulated that way, but by giving it either to the government or (less frequently) to companies that operate in a distorted economic environment.

[Tom Paine]

The thing is, the government actually helps by giving them money as well, probably because it is also in their interests. It has problems, like when massive arms caches are found sometimes, but is a great success. The number of hands the money passes through is probably higher than you would think, but the fact they work for a charity and live in a Western nation, are proably well-off, and don't need the money stays their hands; the others, they are highly religious (priests) and actually follow the tenets of the Bible incredibly faithfully. Amazing project. But anyway. If the problem is how many hands it passes through, surely we could simply authorise the ambassadors to hand out food aid or to get people fdrom the embassy to do so, in a public square or whatever? Or use government forces like the police for protection while delivering it?

[Dromikaites]

The thing is, the government actually helps by giving them money as well, probably because it is also in their interests. It has problems, like when massive arms caches are found sometimes, but is a great success. The number of hands the money passes through is probably higher than you would think, but the fact they work for a charity and live in a Western nation, are proably well-off, and don't need the money stays their hands; the others, they are highly religious (priests) and actually follow the tenets of the Bible incredibly faithfully. Amazing project. But anyway. If the problem is how many hands it passes through, surely we could simply authorise the ambassadors to hand out food aid or to get people fdrom the embassy to do so, in a public square or whatever? Or use government forces like the police for protection while delivering it?

Yes, this might work. However keep in mind that:
1) This is not how foreign debt was created. Foreign debt was created by lending money (not giving aid - aid is a donation, not a loan) to governments of the poor countries;
2) Many governments won't allow the foreigners to hand the aid directly to those in need for several reasons:
- it allows the foreign representatives to know how the situation really is when the government might have an interest to conceal it,
- it allows the natives to interact with the foreigners and get "contaminated" with "subversive" ideas like democracy, no corruption, accountability of the government to its own citizens, impartial justice, human rights, etc.

[Tom Paine]

1) Which is why debt cancellation is also needed. Badly. So that the economy is not crippled by repayments. I do not suggest that alone; the two, aid and debt relief, are complimentary measures.
2) Democratic nations will accept it, those in dire need will accept it. Many would accept it if we tried; especially if there were government forces present, not in control but in order to keep the peace.

[Epirote]

Even with debt cancellation nothing says it will solve the problems of poor countries faster.
They will just get a deep breath and sink to their big problems once more.

[Tom Paine]

It will, however, alleviate them somewhat. And the poorer countries need aid to get back on their feet, not debts to break their backs. Of course, that doesn't work in an "evil" dictatorship, that is a reperessive regime, but in many countries it would; as would UN Peacekeepers in certain of them.

[Dromikaites]

It will, however, alleviate them somewhat. And the poorer countries need aid to get back on their feet, not debts to break their backs. Of course, that doesn't work in an "evil" dictatorship, that is a reperessive regime, but in many countries it would; as would UN Peacekeepers in certain of them.

Well, I think aid in form of food, clothing, medical supplies, etc should go everywhere. Money, however, should go only where it makes business sens. If a country is not able to collect taxes, doesn't have a true market economy, doesn't have most of the capital in private hands (as oposed to the state ownership), doesn't have a system that supports and enforces free competition, doesn't have a proper education system, then pumping money there is just creating more debt.