Knights of Malta

**EmperorBatman999** · August 09, 2009, 01:35 PM

Maybe we could make all naval flags half the Knights of St. John flag and Half of the Italian Coat of Arms, otherwise anything else is impossible. We can't make flags for specific units yet. Besides, I don't know the uniforms that each Phillier's regiment wore. Is there any drawings or paintings of the Grandmaster and Marshal's (or grand commander, whichever works) regiments?

**SonOfOdin** · August 09, 2009, 01:46 PM

Umm...no, there aren't any pics on the regiments of the piliers but you can take the Faction's colour
Ex : Aragon/Castille(Spain) - Yellow/red, Auverge/Provence(France) - Blue, England - Red, Germany - Black/yellow, Italy - Green/Red

But to make ALL the naval flags with the Italian coat of arms wouldn't be such a good idea because only the Admiral(who was always the italian pilier) hoisted the italian flag

**EmperorBatman999** · August 09, 2009, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

Umm...no, there aren't any pics on the regiments of the piliers but you can take the Faction's colour
Ex : Aragon/Castille(Spain) - Yellow/red, Auverge/Provence(France) - Blue, England - Red, Germany - Black/yellow, Italy - Green/Red

But to make ALL the naval flags with the Italian coat of arms wouldn't be such a good idea because only the Admiral(who was always the italian pilier) hoisted the italian flag

Well it would be impossible to give the admiral's flagship the Italian flag, only. It is either Italian flag or KoSJ flag.
I'm not sure what I could do with the Phillers' regiments. What nationality was most often the grandmaster from in the 18th century?
Alright, the Grand Commander's regiment will be a blue variation of line infantry with guard-status stats. (since that was Provance, right?)

**SonOfOdin** · August 09, 2009, 04:19 PM

Yes, the Grand Commander was the pilier of the tongue of Provance, and he replaced the Grand Master when he was absent(making him 2nd most important figure in the Order)

**EmperorBatman999** · August 09, 2009, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

Yes, the Grand Commander was the pilier of the tongue of Provance, and he replaced the Grand Master when he was absent(making him 2nd most important figure in the Order)

We need a historical source some time or another, Sir Digby may not want to make a skin without a historic referance first. Is there any paintings or drawing in museums like the ones I based my Order Cavalry off of? What color uniform would the Phillier of Provance's regiment would be? What color were the facings?

**SonOfOdin** · August 09, 2009, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999

We need a historical source some time or another, Sir Digby may not want to make a skin without a historic referance first. Is there any paintings or drawing in museums like the ones I based my Order Cavalry off of? What color uniform would the Phillier of Provance's regiment would be? What color were the facings?

Coat of Arms of Provence

I take it that Provence's colour was blue, but sources are very limited
I'll visit Fort St.Angelo as soon as I can(the Order recently took it with a contract with the goverment for 99 years) and try to sniff out some more info on units and the piliers

And here is a list of Grandmasters of the 18th century if you want to see the country with most GM's
And yes, I now discovered there is a Portugese tongue

Ramon Perellos y Roccaful - Spanish
Marc'Antonio Zondadari - Italian
António Manoel de Vilhena - Portugese
Raymond Despuig - No clue, found nothing(but impossible to be German as there was only 1 German grandmaster)
Manuel Pinto da Fonseca - Portugese
Francisco Ximenes de Texada - Spanish
Emmanuel de Rohan-Polduc - French
Ferdinand von Hompesch zu Bolheim - German(and last Grandmaster in Malta)

I did not put in the dates because I forgot, but I don't think they're too important

**EmperorBatman999** · August 09, 2009, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

Coat of Arms of Provence

I take it that Provence's colour was blue, but sources are very limited
I'll visit Fort St.Angelo as soon as I can(the Order recently took it with a contract with the goverment for 99 years) and try to sniff out some more info on units and the piliers

And here is a list of Grandmasters of the 18th century if you want to see the country with most GM's
And yes, I now discovered there is a Portugese tongue

Ramon Perellos y Roccaful - Spanish
Marc'Antonio Zondadari - Italian
António Manoel de Vilhena - Portugese
Raymond Despuig - No clue, found nothing(but impossible to be German as there was only 1 German grandmaster)
Manuel Pinto da Fonseca - Portugese
Francisco Ximenes de Texada - Spanish
Emmanuel de Rohan-Polduc - French
Ferdinand von Hompesch zu Bolheim - German(and last Grandmaster in Malta)

I did not put in the dates because I forgot, but I don't think they're too important

So the facings will be blue and red.
It appears that Portugal is the winner, though. What were the Portugese historic colors?

**SonOfOdin** · August 09, 2009, 06:40 PM

Well Portugal were usually Blue-ish but still, Provence was the dominant tongue of the order...those are just the grandmasters of the 18th century(Most GMs were actually French and Spanish)
But I don't know how this Portugese tongue got invented bacause the tongues were :

Provence
Auverge
Germany
Italy
England(dismissed by Henry VIII(the guy who married 7 wives or so and was excommunicated))
Castille
Aragon
and Bavaria(formed in the Mid 18th century)

I should probably ask Carl about the Portugese tongue(if there was any)

Wait I got it figured out :

The Tongue of Aragon was made up of all knights from the Iberian Penninsula(except Castille)

And Vilhena entered the order in the Aragonese tongue...so I guess the other Portugese had the same situation

**Carl von Döbeln** · August 10, 2009, 02:36 AM

I should probably ask Carl about the Portugese tongue(if there was any)

There was. The tounge of Portugal. They did have a pilier but according to my research the pilier did not have a grand position like Turcopolier ( commander of the coastal defences. Master of Chivalry etc etc. The tounge of England had that position). or Drapier but nontheless the pilier of the tounge of portugal was considered to be a grandcross like the other piliers of the order.

**SonOfOdin** · August 10, 2009, 04:48 AM

Thanks for your info mate

**EmperorBatman999** · August 10, 2009, 10:26 PM

Have you done any more research on what the Grand Commander and Grand Master's regiments would be dressed in?

**SonOfOdin** · August 11, 2009, 05:23 AM

I searched all of google and yahoo but no info
Fort St.Angelo only opens from 9-11 and my usual wake up time is 10, I'' try to go this week but I don't think they can help too much
Maybe they can provide some info about what the knights(the ACTUAL knights) did in the 18th century(except getting drunk and raping maltese women), and maybe a painting of a real knight of the 18th century(they must've been limited to some 200 in the 18th century)

HAHA SUCESS!!!!
The one on the left is the ACTUAL KNIGHT(the one who took the order's vows...not like Maltese drafted commoners(nothing against my people here))
Maybe he can be made into a special unit made up of Knight Cavalry? Like..."Knights of St.John" as a name?

**EmperorBatman999** · August 11, 2009, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

I searched all of google and yahoo but no info
Fort St.Angelo only opens from 9-11 and my usual wake up time is 10, I'' try to go this week but I don't think they can help too much
Maybe they can provide some info about what the knights(the ACTUAL knights) did in the 18th century(except getting drunk and raping maltese women), and maybe a painting of a real knight of the 18th century(they must've been limited to some 200 in the 18th century)

HAHA SUCESS!!!!
The one on the left is the ACTUAL KNIGHT(the one who took the order's vows...not like Maltese drafted commoners(nothing against my people here))
Maybe he can be made into a special unit made up of Knight Cavalry? Like..."Knights of St.John" as a name?

Hmmm, I don't think there is anything in the game that could replicate his fancy hat thing. Maybe for now a Grenadier's mitre cap like the Prussian grenadiers wear will do? We could've used the Polish grenadier gard one possibly, too I guess but that is a DLC unit and CA doesn't want us messing with DLC units.

**SonOfOdin** · August 11, 2009, 05:27 PM

Yeah, well the hat isn't such a problem since they wouldn't have worn in in combat(I think)
Is there a model in game that is slightly noble looking but battle-ready at the same time?

**EmperorBatman999** · August 11, 2009, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

Yeah, well the hat isn't such a problem since they wouldn't have worn in in combat(I think)
Is there a model in game that is slightly noble looking but battle-ready at the same time?

Not sure, define noble.

Maybe these guys, reskin them and put them on horse?
Also, in addition, can you get a hold of some paintings of the KoSJ marines? I heard that most of their importance was in their navy, not their army (hence the lack of sources for land soldiers). We could also replace the marine models, too with moe accurate marines and make them a land unit, as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**SonOfOdin** · August 12, 2009, 08:18 AM

Yep that hat is definetly noble-looking...well give it your best shot
And good point about the navy. 50% of the Maltese Population worked in Privateering for the order(either as tailors, wood workers, blacksmiths etc)
I'll try to find some pics but they would've probably worn their everyday clothing(similiar to the pirate faction's bucaneers but with different colours...they were poor people you know)

Corsair -
"The term refers to pirates or privateers who operated in the Mediterranean. The most recognized corsairs were from the Barbary Coast of North Africa (European crusaders named their Muslim enemies “Barbary Corsairs”).
These corsairs were authorized by their governments to prey upon the shipping lanes of Christian countries. The Maltese Corsairs led the fight against the Turks, being led by the Knights of St. John. The Maltese Corsairs initially fought for religion, but after a while the rewards of piracy grew to greater appeal. Soon the Maltese Corsairs were full-fledged pirates, with no interest in religious ideals."

Something like this maybe :

**EmperorBatman999** · August 12, 2009, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

Yep that hat is definetly noble-looking...well give it your best shot
And good point about the navy. 50% of the Maltese Population worked in Privateering for the order(either as tailors, wood workers, blacksmiths etc)
I'll try to find some pics but they would've probably worn their everyday clothing(similiar to the pirate faction's bucaneers but with different colours...they were poor people you know)

Corsair -
"The term refers to pirates or privateers who operated in the Mediterranean. The most recognized corsairs were from the Barbary Coast of North Africa (European crusaders named their Muslim enemies “Barbary Corsairs”).
These corsairs were authorized by their governments to prey upon the shipping lanes of Christian countries. The Maltese Corsairs led the fight against the Turks, being led by the Knights of St. John. The Maltese Corsairs initially fought for religion, but after a while the rewards of piracy grew to greater appeal. Soon the Maltese Corsairs were full-fledged pirates, with no interest in religious ideals."

Something like this maybe :

You should lock your doors, I wouldn't want guys dressed like that running around my town.

Anyway, with a reskin, it could be possible to do that unit, but they really weren't part of the military and went pretty much on their own with some support from the Order. I don't even think they would tag along with the Order's fleets if they were doing an invasion, but they didn't do many invasions so I wouldn't know.
I just had an idea, if you found a source, we could always do a marine land unit and put them on ships. Perhaps an elite "land" marine regiment that would be the Italian phillier's regiment? We can't put marines on normal ships, so perhaps make equivalent ships that are named in Italian (Like instead of 6th rate have "32-cannon Light Frigate")? Add a little more immersion, because I beleive the rate system used by ships in the game is British. Also, we could have the sjips named more appropiatly, because the ship bames are English words like "Dolphin" and "Dunkirk", perhaps have more Order-oriented names like ships named after Grandmasters? Of course Homische would be left out because he was the last grandmaster with a military force in the order.

**SonOfOdin** · August 12, 2009, 03:19 PM

The Maltese actually worked like this :

A Knight/Noble finances a ship - He hires workers and soldiers - he sends them to raid muslim ships under the command of one of his(The knight/noble's) friends(usually a skilled seafearer) The Knight/Noble gets about 50% of the booty and Workers and Ship Crew get the other 50%(or the Knight gets 75% and the Crew 25%)...so it was really a hiring job more than a permanent one...but it could make you rich for life

I have a Ship in a Bottle of one of the ships that the order came to Malta in from Sicily(they had three Grand Carracks - Remember MTW2?)
It's name was the Sant' Anna(Saint Anne)
The Order usually named it's ships for Past Grand Masters (La Vallette, Cassiere, L'Isle Adam, La Sengle) and Saints(Saint John, Saint Paul, Saint Anne, Saint Joseph etc)
Most Maltese Towns have their name after Grandmasters(Valletta, Senglea(Isla), Citta Pinto(Hal-Qormi), Citta Rohan(Haz-Zebbug),Citta Vittoriosa(Birgu), Wignacourt Street etc) - This was just trivia

The order had limited ships, the rest were owned by Nobles

Number of Galleons :

1530 - 3
1562 - 6
1590 - 3
1674 - 7
1686 - 8

Middle 18th Century - 4 Sailing vessels, 4 Galleys, 4 Frigates

Head of Order's fleet = Admiral - Head of the Langue of Italy
Naval Commanders = Captain General of Galleys - Elected by Grand Master and Council
Captain of Galleys - Also Elected

Crew = Galley : Knights & Servants at Arms, Soldiers, Sailors, Tradesmen, Pilot & his assistant, doctor and Captain

1670 - Flagship(Capitana) - 220 Members, Other Galleys - 181

The Grand Harbour was the Main Harbour, and Birgu(Ctitta Vittoriosa) was the Official Harbour(docking, loading and stuff)

Here is the best article on the navy(pics included at bottom of article, above references : http://www.geocities.com/melitahistoricac/hw19946.html

**EmperorBatman999** · August 12, 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by SonOfOdin

The Maltese actually worked like this :

A Knight/Noble finances a ship - He hires workers and soldiers - he sends them to raid muslim ships under the command of one of his(The knight/noble's) friends(usually a skilled seafearer) The Knight/Noble gets about 50% of the booty and Workers and Ship Crew get the other 50%(or the Knight gets 75% and the Crew 25%)...so it was really a hiring job more than a permanent one...but it could make you rich for life

I have a Ship in a Bottle of one of the ships that the order came to Malta in from Sicily(they had three Grand Carracks - Remember MTW2?)
It's name was the Sant' Anna(Saint Anne)
The Order usually named it's ships for Past Grand Masters (La Vallette, Cassiere, L'Isle Adam, La Sengle) and Saints(Saint John, Saint Paul, Saint Anne, Saint Joseph etc)
Most Maltese Towns have their name after Grandmasters(Valletta, Senglea(Isla), Citta Pinto(Hal-Qormi), Citta Rohan(Haz-Zebbug),Citta Vittoriosa(Birgu), Wignacourt Street etc) - This was just trivia

The order had limited ships, the rest were owned by Nobles

Number of Galleons :

1530 - 3
1562 - 6
1590 - 3
1674 - 7
1686 - 8

Middle 18th Century - 4 Sailing vessels, 4 Galleys, 4 Frigates

Head of Order's fleet = Admiral - Head of the Langue of Italy
Naval Commanders = Captain General of Galleys - Elected by Grand Master and Council
Captain of Galleys - Also Elected

Crew = Galley : Knights & Servants at Arms, Soldiers, Sailors, Tradesmen, Pilot & his assistant, doctor and Captain

1670 - Flagship(Capitana) - 220 Members, Other Galleys - 181

The Grand Harbour was the Main Harbour, and Birgu(Ctitta Vittoriosa) was the Official Harbour(docking, loading and stuff)

Here is the best article on the navy(pics included at bottom of article, above references : http://www.geocities.com/melitahistoricac/hw19946.html

Hmm, very interesting article there. But have you found any pictures of the Order's marines?
Also, the Order is still in need of more land units, maybe 2-3 more, and the Order Marines (the soldiers on the ships) could be a unit, but once again, I need a source...