The Hobbit Trilogy 2012-2014

[Påsan]

I think part 2 ends with Smaugs death as well. PJ said he would try to make part 2 the best, and for that you need a better climax than a scirmish in Laketown.

[Thangaror]

Smaug is THE antagonist, it'd be nonsense to make kill him off in part 2. There won't be much of a plot left for part 3, except a humongous battle. Not that this will stop Jackson screwing up massively...

I hope that part 2 ends with Sauron driven out from Dol Guldur. Sauron was already defeated, and Gandalf would've made half his way to Erebor when Smaug was killed, so this makes a lot of sense just looking at the timeline. Also you then have action concentrating on one place, instead of two major events occuring at once in the storyline.

[Påsan]

There is plenty to make a plot out of after Smaug. There is that whole long business with the stand off between the Humasn/Dwarves/Elves. Plenty of drama and plenty of character development going off in quick succession and then sudden Big Battle and the obligatory 30 min ending.

But yeah Dol Goldur would make a more sensible part 2 climax than lake town if it turns out the movie does not end with a black arrow. But I still think Smaug guts it in nr 2. He is the catalyst, not really the major antagonist considering he plays no part in the climax of the story. And I don't think they will pull another Saruman and put his death to early movie 3.

[athanaric]

I think this debate highlights the stupidity of turning "The Hobbit" into a trilogy.

[lolIsuck]

Smaug is THE antagonist, it'd be nonsense to make kill him off in part 2. There won't be much of a plot left for part 3, except a humongous battle. Not that this will stop Jackson screwing up massively...

I hope that part 2 ends with Sauron driven out from Dol Guldur. Sauron was already defeated, and Gandalf would've made half his way to Erebor when Smaug was killed, so this makes a lot of sense just looking at the timeline. Also you then have action concentrating on one place, instead of two major events occuring at once in the storyline.

I got the impression from the first part that Azog was the big antagonist. Now Smaug is of course not really featured in the first part of the book but PJ made such an important character out of Azog, chasing the company throughout the entire film, that he'll probably play a big part in the second film too. I think Smaug is more of the "hidden" final boss.

[k/t]

Hidden dragon, crouching goblin...

[Hresvelgr]

I saw a photogallery of some Laketown shots, showing the town and the people, and it really looks as nice as I'd hoped. Apparently they were going for a wide array of different places for inspiration, like central Asia, Russia, Scandinavia, Mongolia, etc, but the architecture reminds me nothing so much as Norway. Which is ironic since when the last movie came out some people here were upset it was Nordic enough and now we got a town of nice ol' stave church-looking buildings. In any case, it also seems to be the most (and really only) racially diverse place in Middle-Earth as well, since it's supposed to be the big trading center of Rhovanion, at the crossroads where east meets west and I'm sure southerners go up there too because why not. So yeah, it all looks really nice and now I'm somewhat hoping I'm wrong about where the movie ends just so I can see more of Laketown when it's not crispy. It's a good thing PJ said he'll be giving the place a pretty big role in the movie at least. And I really want to see a mod made that makes the Dale faction more like the Dale and Lake-Town of the movies. And I know that Girion is shown a bit in the Extended Edition of AUJ, but I wonder if that flashback will be shown in DoS with more elaboration as to who Girion is, to establish Bard's noble heritage. Interestingly, Girion is actually played by Luke Evans as well.

EDIT: Also, something a little funny I noticed about Lake-Town is how schizophrenic the technology seems to be, albeit I don't mean it in a bad way. They townspeople themselves seem to be portrayed as being somewhat poor, with most of the people living in ramshackle houses and all, with a rich aristocracy ruling over them, but they seem more advanced than other men in several ways. They've got a lot of glass everywhere, particularly glass windows, even in the poorer looking houses, and they even seem to have oil-lamps. I suppose glass-making is one of the special crafts of theirs and probably a big export. Certainly gives the places its own character. Though I just realized, Bree had a lot of glass windows too but I can't remember seeing any at all in either Rohan or Gondor. Rohan I can understand, those dudes are like dirt poor and the only settlement of note at all is Edoras, but Gondor seems a bit weirder for its lack. Maybe it's the climate?

[athanaric]

I saw a photogallery of some Laketown shots, showing the town and the people, and it really looks as nice as I'd hoped. Apparently they were going for a wide array of different places for inspiration, like central Asia, Russia, Scandinavia, Mongolia, etc, but the architecture reminds me nothing so much as Norway.

Well, the actual Vikings had some Central Asian cultural influences as well (the typical "Viking" helmets IIRC originated with Iranian groups, and there was some trade going on with Arabs and other Asians). I guess most people miss that part, though.

Though I just realized, Bree had a lot of glass windows too but I can't remember seeing any at all in either Rohan or Gondor. Rohan I can understand, those dudes are like dirt poor and the only settlement of note at all is Edoras, but Gondor seems a bit weirder for its lack. Maybe it's the climate?

There is no indication in the source material that Rohan should be poor or particularly backwards, it's more of a screw up by Jackson and team. They took a couple too many "dung age" peasants from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and made it worse by shooting the Rohan scenes in a barren tundra. What I get from reading the novel is that Rohan is actually a green place with good pastures and some agriculture, and inhabitants who dress in bright colours. Less sophisticated than Gondor, sure, but that doesn't say much.
Regarding Gondor, that is indeed strange. Didn't really pay attention to it, but it might be an unintentional implication or just an oversight by the filmmakers.
Dale was more of a base for toy making, which means it should be quite sophisticated. Esgaroth seems to be inspired by Venice, so the glass-heavy designs might actually be a nod to Murano.

[Hresvelgr]

To be fair, I think Rohan and Gondor were intentionally made to look a little poor or rundown on account of the whole war going on and all. I like the difference between Meduseld before and after Gandalf's arrival for example. And yeah, the line between Scandinavian and Russian and Central Asian is often rather hard to discern. In any case, the quasi-Russian look they had going on in Dale actually made me want to look up more about medieval Russian history, which is cool.

[Påsan]

Pre-mongolian Russian history had major influences from Scandinavia so that's no surprise. I pick up both Russian and Scandinavian influences in Laketown, which is fitting. No Venice though, lol.

There is no indication in the source material that Rohan should be poor or particularly backwards, it's more of a screw up by Jackson and team. They took a couple too many "dung age" peasants from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and made it worse by shooting the Rohan scenes in a barren tundra. What I get from reading the novel is that Rohan is actually a green place with good pastures and some agriculture, and inhabitants who dress in bright colours. Less sophisticated than Gondor, sure, but that doesn't say much.
Regarding Gondor, that is indeed strange. Didn't really pay attention to it, but it might be an unintentional implication or just an oversight by the filmmakers.
Dale was more of a base for toy making, which means it should be quite sophisticated. Esgaroth seems to be inspired by Venice, so the glass-heavy designs might actually be a nod to Murano.

Rohan was basically Anglo Saxons with horses, I'd say they are pretty damn accurate in the movies. And don't blame New Zealand for not having your ideal Rohan in it, I think they were the Culture with the absolute best representation in the whole damn saga. Perhaps along with the Hobbits.

"Their kinship is rather with the Beornings of the Wood, or the Bardings of Dale, among whom may still be seen many Men tall and far, as are the Rohirrim...They are proud and willful, but they are true-hearted, generous in thought and deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years "

[Jmonstra]

Pre-mongolian Russian history had major influences from Scandinavia so that's no surprise. I pick up both Russian and Scandinavian influences in Laketown, which is fitting. No Venice though, lol.



Rohan was basically Anglo Saxons with horses, I'd say they are pretty damn accurate in the movies. And don't blame New Zealand for not having your ideal Rohan in it, I think they were the Culture with the absolute best representation in the whole damn saga. Perhaps along with the Hobbits.

My biggest problem with the location they chose to shoot the scenes in Rohan in is the fact that it's a rocky, wasteland unfit for the raising of horses. Do I blame New Zealand? No. I blame the director who decided to shoot scenes the scenes there.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

No Rohan in New Zealand?

[Thangaror]

I'm pretty sure Meduseld wasn't described to have windows in the books. It's an old fashioned Germanic Longhouse and only had a few openings above the hearth.

"The guards now lifted the heavy bars of the doors and swung them slowly inwards grumbling on their great hinges. The travelers entered. Inside it seemed dark and warm after the clear air upon the hill. The hall was long and wide and filled with shadows and half lights; mighty pillars upheld its lofty roof. But here and there bright sunbeams fell in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep eaves. Through the louver in the roof, above the thin wisps of issuing smoke, the sky showed pale and blue."
- The Two Towers, The King of the Golden Hall

So, as a matter of fact Jackson's staff did come up with a pretty accurate set for Meduseld. When it comes to Rohan in general they did screw up massively, and Påsan, you can't tell me there are no green pastures in NZ. You can actually see a few better locations in FotR.

Regarding Gondor, I don't think we really see buildings from that close, or from inside. Except the Hall of the Kings and the Houses of Healing. There certainly are a lot of arches and windows, though no glass is seen. The architecture is pretty Mediterranean, meaning the windows would be set rather deep into the walls so the building doesn't heat up as fast when the sun is shining.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I'm pretty sure Meduseld wasn't described to have windows in the books. It's an old fashioned Germanic Longhouse and only had a few openings above the hearth.

"The guards now lifted the heavy bars of the doors and swung them slowly inwards grumbling on their great hinges. The travelers entered. Inside it seemed dark and warm after the clear air upon the hill. The hall was long and wide and filled with shadows and half lights; mighty pillars upheld its lofty roof. But here and there bright sunbeams fell in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep eaves. Through the louver in the roof, above the thin wisps of issuing smoke, the sky showed pale and blue."
- The Two Towers, The King of the Golden Hall

So, as a matter of fact Jackson's staff did come up with a pretty accurate set for Meduseld. When it comes to Rohan in general they did screw up massively, and Påsan, you can't tell me there are no green pastures in NZ. You can actually see a few better locations in FotR.

Regarding Gondor, I don't think we really see buildings from that close, or from inside. Except the Hall of the Kings and the Houses of Healing. There certainly are a lot of arches and windows, though no glass is seen. The architecture is pretty Mediterranean, meaning the windows would be set rather deep into the walls so the building doesn't heat up as fast when the sun is shining.

I have to admit, Meduseld looked nice, even though we didn't see much of it. However, Gondor was just atrociously bad. I've seen chapels more magnificent than PJ's Hall of Kings.

[Påsan]

I think Minas Tirith was pretty magnificent.

So, as a matter of fact Jackson's staff did come up with a pretty accurate set for Meduseld. When it comes to Rohan in general they did screw up massively, and Påsan, you can't tell me there are no green pastures in NZ. You can actually see a few better locations in FotR.

Alright maybe the terrain could have been better. Costuming and design was spot on though.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I think Minas Tirith was pretty magnificent.



Alright maybe the terrain could have been better. Costuming and design was spot on though.

If by magnificent you mean a tiny city built on scrubland, and made out of sugar cubes, yes. Costumes were meh, I liked the helmets, but they should have been less uniform. As for the character costumes, they should have probably been closer to ''Age of Migrations" than ''Renaissance Fair". And certainly brighter.

[Bobz]

Just watched the new production video earlier and I was quite surprised to see them briefly differentiate between the Sindarin/Silvan Elves. I would of thought they would just of all been "elves".

My biggest problem with the location they chose to shoot the scenes in Rohan in is the fact that it's a rocky, wasteland unfit for the raising of horses. Do I blame New Zealand? No. I blame the director who decided to shoot scenes the scenes there.

Edoras wasn't bad was it? Well watered grasslands?

[Dutch-Balrog]

I think that even though PJ makes misstakes, i do see the reasons behind his decisions, films are naturally made to try and attract a massive amount of diffrent people, and the Lord of the Rings films are some of the best ever made because of that. I really think that the films would not be any populair if they were too much like the books in art style and storytelling, just because that stuff only works for books, and not films. PJ made misstakes yes i know, and some pretty stupid ones (Elves in Helms Deep), but there is no one else in the world who could have made better films out of LotR.

Also, the first Hobbit may not be up to the standards of LotR, but it was still a very good film. I got my hopes up for the Desolation of Smaug!

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I really think that the films would not be as popular if they were too much like the books in art style and storytelling, just because that stuff only works for books, and not films

How so? What's wrong with the storytelling and general ''design philosophy" (As much as that applies to a novel) ?

[Lortano]

I can understand combining Erkanbrand and Eomer into one character for convenience for the movie goer, as they needed someone to relate to and honestly Eomer is far more interesting than Erkenbrand. Bear in mind though, that where the movies did shine most was when they adapted the book as true as they could.

Take the Khazad-Dum scene, they cut out bits about Gandalf holding the door shut with Magic and stuff like that, but the scene was absolutely spectacular, even the 'Dwarf tossing joke' actually kind of worked. Who can honestly say that the confrontatation on the bridge was not good? Apart from Elijah Woods face and screams of agony, the scene was excellent. Actually Fellowship stuck closest to the book out of all of them, and many would argue it was the best film, and giving Arwen a prominent place instead of Glorfindel was fine, consideirng that Glorfindel does nothing in the rest of the book, and as Arwen is integral to the plot.

They actually did a pretty good job with the Minas Tirith fight, aside from the fact that the Outer Wall was White when it is stated to be Black, but I guess they didn't want Black being associated with the good guys. The bit after Denethor has his little hissy fit, and before the Army of Deux Ex Machina shows up are very good scenes, although I did hate how crap the Gondorian foot soldiers were, they were being out fought by an Old bloke and and a midget with a shortsword. Theoden's speech is haunting, and combining Eomer and Theoden's speech in the book did make the charge feel even more epic, though I'm certain some would've preffered Eomer to do his whole crazy act after Eowyn gets smacked.

And then they ruined it by having the Rohirrim charging Elephants with anti horse spikes on their tusks, which is a decision no sane man would've made. And then of course the Army of the Green Lantern Corps comes along and makes all of their sacrifices completely and utterly pointless.