Formula 1

[Roman_Wolf]

Raikonen's with the mind on Rally championship. From what i read mins ago, it's not sure he will pass on Mclaren. Undecided between F1 and Rally

then I hope he goes to Rally. Makes it easier for me

[DAVIDE]

he's not a good driver anyway. Better he leave Ferrari

[Brusilov]

he's not a good driver anyway. Better he leave Ferrari

Are you serious? Clearly the Ferrari has not been a very good car this year and the results of all the drivers have reflected this.

Kimi is still one of the better drivers out there on the grid. If he gets a semi-decent car again next year he will still be winning more races.

[DAVIDE]

Are you serious? Clearly the Ferrari has not been a very good car this year and the results of all the drivers have reflected this.

Kimi is still one of the better drivers out there on the grid. If he gets a semi-decent car again next year he will still be winning more races.

When Hamilton won the championship with +1 on Massa, Raikonen had the same car of Brazilian and Raikonen did suck all the time in all the races. Raikonen's one of the most overrated drivers of all time. Alonso is stronger than him

[Musthavename]

When Hamilton won the championship with +1 on Massa, Raikonen had the same car of Massa and Raikonen did suck all the time in all the races. Raikonen's one of the most overrated drivers of all time. Alonso is stronger than him

And the season before that Raikkonen was World Champion! Unless you have a wildly better car (which he didn't, Ferrari and McLarens were on fairly level pegging overall), you can't really deny that being World Champion means you're a great driver.

Alonso is far more consistant than Raikkonen, but when Kimi is up for it, he's probably the fastest driver on the grid imo.

[DAVIDE]

And the season before that Raikkonen was World Champion! Unless you have a wildly better car (which he didn't, Ferrari and McLarens were on fairly level pegging overall), you can't really deny that being World Champion means you're a great driver.

Alonso is far more consistant than Raikkonen, but when Kimi is up for it, he's probably the fastest driver on the grid imo.

Winning a championship means anything.

Take the early Brown GP this year (as example). what could've been happened if after the 6 races they won, they won even the remaining ones? can Button be considered a great pilot? well, Button could've won the championship but thanks to gigantic superiority of early BGP and mistakes of other teams in pre-season car modification (the dispute aboute rules). If you and me are challenging in a race, you with an old Eclipse, me with last released Ferrari and i beat you giving you 40 seconds of delay, the fact i won isnt thanks to my ability in driving. Massa or Alonso showed they can win even with crap cars, at difference of Raikonen which is disappointing even when he has the best car on the grid.

Raikonen < Massa < Alonso

[Juvenal]

Raikonen < Massa < Alonso

When Hamilton and Alonso were team-mates, Hamilton beat him and he threw a hissy-fit.

Alonso has been a big fish in a small pool. It will be fascinating to see how he gets on with Massa, who is favoured of Michael Schumacher and unlikely to be feeling like playing second-fiddle now that Ferrari allow their drivers to race each other.

[Musthavename]

Take the early Brown GP this year (as example). what could've been happened if after the 6 races they won, they won even the remaining ones? can Button be considered a great pilot? well, Button could've won the championship but thanks to gigantic superiority of early BGP and mistakes of other teams in pre-season car modification (the dispute aboute rules). If you and me are challenging in a race, you with an old Eclipse, me with last released Ferrari and i beat you giving you 40 seconds of delay, the fact i won isnt thanks to my ability in driving. Massa or Alonso showed they can win even with crap cars, at difference of Raikonen which is disappointing even when he has the best car on the grid.

And Button has by far the best car. Rereading my post:

Unless you have a wildly better car

Now, the only car that has had the consistency season long to compete with Brawn is Red Bull. Vettel probably does have the talent to be WC one day, but he's made a few mistakes (e.g. Australia, Turkey), coupled with engine problems. The fact that we've got 3 races left and the title contest is pretty much between the two Brawns barring a miracle suggests the Brawn is a far better car. Thus, you can't really say too much about a potential Baricchello/Button WC when they haven't had to compete against Hamilton/Alonso/Kimi.

Whereas when Raikkonnen won it, he beat both McLarens driven by two great drivers plus his teammate. Raikkonnen is easily a better driver than Massa is. You only have to consider that despite Massa coming close, he had a LOT of points gifted to him (Raikkonen letting him through twice, Raikkonen having problems in France, the Spa Fiasco, penalties in Fuji, add all of those up and Hamilton could've beaten Massa by a 13 pt margin with Kimi on essentially Massa's tally).

Alonso has been a big fish in a small pool. It will be fascinating to see how he gets on with Massa, who is favoured of Michael Schumacher and unlikely to be feeling like playing second-fiddle now that Ferrari allow their drivers to race each other.

If its Alonso, then Massa will be playing second-fiddle.

[Brusilov]

When Hamilton won the championship with +1 on Massa, Raikonen had the same car of Brazilian and Raikonen did suck all the time in all the races. Raikonen's one of the most overrated drivers of all time. Alonso is stronger than him

I think that's an exaggeration that "Raikonen did suck all the time in all the races" - towards the end of the season he was supporting Massa in his championship challenge.

You need to have another look at the standings as your memory is clearly not good enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Formula_One_season

Two Wins (Malaysia and Monaco)
Nine fastest race laps
Race positions
8,1,2,1,3,9,Ret,2,4,6,3,Ret,18,9,15,3,3,3,

When Hamilton and Alonso were team-mates, Hamilton beat him and he threw a hissy-fit.

Alonso has been a big fish in a small pool. It will be fascinating to see how he gets on with Massa, who is favoured of Michael Schumacher and unlikely to be feeling like playing second-fiddle now that Ferrari allow their drivers to race each other.

Both Hamilton and Alonso had hissy-fits during that season. At Monaco Hamilton complained that McLaren wouldn't let him race Alonso after the last pit stops. At Hungary the problems in qualifying were mostly down to Hamilton. Due to the way the cars were prepared for the race he was supposed to let Alonso be the first McLaren on track. Hamilton decided to ignore team orders and wouldn't let Alonso past (we was too far away). All that happened at Hungary after than was Hamilton's fault.

I would enjoy seeing Lewis Hamilton and Kimi in the same team. Kimi is probably one of the few drivers who doesn't really care who is in the second seat. If they are team-mates I can see Lewis trying to play mind games with Kimi. I really want to see how he reacts when Kimi ignores him. Hopefully, Lewis may have matured a lot this year and may react better than he would have done previously.

[Juvenal]

Both Hamilton and Alonso had hissy-fits during that season...

True enough, and Hamilton's faults are now well-known, but I expected better of double-World-Champion Alonso. He couldn't cope with not being the recognised number one driver and did rather disgrace himself that year, which is why I was wondering how he will get on at Ferrari.

The Todt era is over and Massa is a much better driver these days... but maybe not as good as Alonso. I think it will be interesting, especially since Ferrari will probably be front-runners again next year.

[Juli26]

Alonso is good, Massa is also very good so we can't predict who will be the 1st driver next season, anyway I would like to see Raikonen again in F1 because things can be interesting: Alonso vs Massa VS Kimi vs Hamilton VS Vettel and Webber VS Button and Rosberg?? or Barricello.

[DAVIDE]

When Hamilton and Alonso were team-mates, Hamilton beat him and he threw a hissy-fit.

Alonso has been a big fish in a small pool. It will be fascinating to see how he gets on with Massa, who is favoured of Michael Schumacher and unlikely to be feeling like playing second-fiddle now that Ferrari allow their drivers to race each other.

Mclaren supported just Hamilton instead of both

"I have an English team mate, in an English team and since the first very day, Mclaren supported just him"
- Alonso in GP of Canada

"all the team support is for him, making it a genius. However, i won 2 races on six and i went on podium several times. I have 40 points and i m running to win the championship"


how Alonso could win, if Mclaren didnt give a about it? simply impossible

[DAVIDE]

I think that's an exaggeration that "Raikonen did suck all the time in all the races" - towards the end of the season he was supporting Massa in his championship challenge.

You need to have another look at the standings as your memory is clearly not good enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Formula_One_season

Two Wins (Malaysia and Monaco)
Nine fastest race laps
Race positions
8,1,2,1,3,9,Ret,2,4,6,3,Ret,18,9,15,3,3,3,

Raikonen:

2001, rank 10th points 9 - Sauber

2002, rank 6th points 23 - Mclaren

2003, rank 2° points 91 - Mclaren

2004, rank 7° points 45 - Mclaren

2005, rank 2nd points 112 - Mclaren

2006, rank 5° points 65 - Mclaren

2007, rank 1st points 110 - Ferrari

2008, rank 3rd points 75 - Ferrari

2009, rank 5°, points 40 - Ferrari



it's incredibly discontinued as driver, considering the year when he won, F2007 was scary superior to the other cars (Ferrari collected more than 204 points)

[Musthavename]

At Hungary the problems in qualifying were mostly down to Hamilton. Due to the way the cars were prepared for the race he was supposed to let Alonso be the first McLaren on track. Hamilton decided to ignore team orders and wouldn't let Alonso past (we was too far away). All that happened at Hungary after than was Hamilton's fault.

Still, Alonso could've taken the moral high ground if he hadn't decided to screw Hamilton over by stopping his lap. It's much harder for someone neutral to then say Hamilton was the worse party when Alonso's actions had a far worse penalty to Hamilton than vice-versas.

how Alonso could win, if Mclaren didnt give a about it? simply impossible

What's more likely?

McLaren decide to spend a ridiculous amount of money for Alonso, pair him with a rookie, and then decide they want to shun the person who they just paid a ridiculous amount of money for in favour of said rookie, so hence deliberatly disadvantage Alonso, which effectivly makes their constructors standing, what really matters to them, worse.

Or the version that Alonso got a bit annoyed because Hamilton had the talent and the permission to race him.

it's incredibly discontinued as driver, considering the year when he won, F2007 was scary superior to the other cars (Ferrari collected more than 204 points)

Err, the McLaren won the constructors that year? Surely if the car was that superior they'd have won the constructors with Massa coming 2nd in the driver's standings.

[Roman_Wolf]

to settle your argument guys:

M.Schumacher > all

[DAVIDE]

Still, Alonso could've taken the moral high ground if he hadn't decided to screw Hamilton over by stopping his lap. It's much harder for someone neutral to then say Hamilton was the worse party when Alonso's actions had a far worse penalty to Hamilton than vice-versas.

What's more likely?

McLaren decide to spend a ridiculous amount of money for Alonso, pair him with a rookie, and then decide they want to shun the person who they just paid a ridiculous amount of money for in favour of said rookie, so hence deliberatly disadvantage Alonso, which effectivly makes their constructors standing, what really matters to them, worse.

Or the version that Alonso got a bit annoyed because Hamilton had the talent and the permission to race him.

Err, the McLaren won the constructors that year? Surely if the car was that superior they'd have won the constructors with Massa coming 2nd in the driver's standings.

Ferrari 204
Bmw 101
Renault 51
Williams 33
REdbull 24

etc.


Mclaren had 202 points, but considering it was a Ferrari painted silver, final standings were:

Ferrari 406
Bmw 101
Renault 51
Williams 33
REdbull 24


isnt this a total dominion ?

[Musthavename]

That's irrelevant. My point is that a driver's world championship means you're a great driver unless the only person who had the car to get close to you was your teammate. Kimi beat off his teammate and two other drivers, both themselves world champions. Surely that just proves Kimi is a damn great driver?

[DAVIDE]

That's irrelevant. My point is that a driver's world championship means you're a great driver unless the only person who had the car to get close to you was your teammate. Kimi beat off his teammate and two other drivers, both themselves world champions. Surely that just proves Kimi is a damn great driver?

No. Massa had 0 points in Canada, Hungary and Italy (thanks to broken engines etc., and at the end ranked 4th with 94 points. 16 points less than Kimi. With 3 third places or less on that these races he went out, Massa was the champion. Raikonen had luck in 2007 because he hasnt had the problems of Massa's car

[Roman_Wolf]

No. Massa had 0 points in Canada, Hungary and Italy (thanks to broken engines etc., and at the end ranked 4th with 94 points. 16 points less than Kimi. With 3 third places or less on that these races he went out, Massa was the champion. Raikonen had luck in 2007 because he hasnt had the problems of Massa's car

Pff, Raikonen had bad luck in 2007 aswell as he had bad luck in almost all his seasons. So yeah he is a great driver whether you admit it or not. And besides, the only reason Ferrari kept Massa rather than Kimi is because Massa is the cheaper option.

[Musthavename]

That, and they want Alonso, and Alonso & Massa is a far nicer team pairing than Alonso & Kimi.

Vettel's on pole tomorrow. Barichello 5th and Button 7th. Looks like Barichello just can't make up the points and Button only needs a few more to make a Vettel victory impossible.