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Thread: Discussion: The Greatest Diadochi Kingdom

  1. #41

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    I *think* he was an infantry officer under Alexander as well as a close friend and became one of Alexander's close bodyguard, apart from that I don't know much about him.

  2. #42

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Leonnatos was a bodygaurd of Alexander; and one of a few number of bodygaurds who helped him when he got stuck on the wall in that Mallian city and was injured.
    Peukestas saved Alexander's life, but Leonnatos did his part also.

    When Alexander died, there was a brief power struggle between Perdiccas, who had the loyalty of the cavalry, of which Leonnatos had a command, and Meleagros who had the loyalty of the infantry.
    Meleagros commanded one of the phalanx brigades.
    I think he represented the view of the common soldiers as oppossed to that of the Hypaspists or Silver shields. It seems to me that the Hypaspists for sure would have been in the camp of Perdiccas.
    Leonnatos helped Perdiccas gain the upperhand over Meleagros. He led the cavalry and elephants in cowing the infantry back into line.
    Meleagros was subsequently killed.

    Leonnatos seems to not have been too happy with his allotement of Hellespont Phrygia, despite its strategic importance. He may or may not have been influenced by Antigonus. Though it seems he certainly must have considered himself in the same boat as Antigonus when they were both ordered to conquer Cappadocia on behalf of Eumenes.
    Leonnatos had a lot more troops than Antigonus, but apparently not enough to take on an invasion of Cappadocia. The amount of troops he had when he marched to relieve Antipater, 20,000 infantry and 1500 cavalry (Diodorus 18. 14-15) seem to fall short of those numbers reported for the Cappadocian king Ariarathes, who had an army of 30,000 infantry and 15,000 cavalry (Diodorus 18. 16. 2).
    And many of these troops Leonnatos had probably recruited when he arrived in Europe.

    Kleopatra offered to marry him. This had royal implications. Leonnatos confided in Eumenes his intentions to make a play for the throne (Plutarch's Eumenes & Diodorus 18.12.1).
    In Europe, Antipater had his hands full with the Lamian war. Upon word of Alexander's death reaching Greece, the Greek states were making their play for independence.
    In fact, the Thessalian cavalry deserted Antipater and he was forced to retire to Lamia where the Greeks were besieging him.
    To marry a sister of Alexander and to successfully rescue Antipater might have made him very popular indeed.
    Eumenes refused to join him in his return to Europe and he and his forces were able to get away from Leonnatos.

    With the Lamian war raging, Leonnatos considered this a valid reason to ignore Perdiccas's order to conquer Cappadocia, and Leonnatos crossed to Europe to assist Antipater in Lamia.
    Leonnatos marched to relieve Antipater, but his army was defeated on the way by the greek army who had to give up the siege in order to fight Leonnatos.
    Leonnatos was killed, but his army was able to make its way to Antipater in Lamia.
    For many, the death of Leonnatos was probably viewed as the removal of a potentially very formidable rival for power.

  3. #43

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan 666 View Post
    Oh, usually when you talk about this with a christian, this is the typical dialogue:
    C-christian R-rational person

    R:your friends burnt a lot of books that they didn't like, and now they are lost forever
    C:yes, but the monks copied a lot of books, if they didn't we wouldn't have all the sources we have today
    R:all the sources????? They saved only what they liked, they saved 10% and burnt 90% of them!
    C:yes, but they saved 10%
    R:so it is a good thing to burn 90% and save only the 10% you like?
    C:yes, 10% is better than nothing
    R:and the 90% that was lost? It was all , wasn't it?
    C:no, but the Church always saved 10%, better than nothing
    R:ok, see ya...I have better things to do than wasting my words with you

    As you can see, I'd prefer talking to a cow rather than with an italian catholic..
    That is an unfair view towards christians , crazies in the that time cant be identified with christians. I started this thread to discuss the best diadochi kkingdom , not to badmouth religion , people shouldnt flame others for their beliefs. the whole 666 thing might explain your attitude

  4. #44

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    I am not satanist, I am against ALL religions. I am particularly against christianity because I live in Italy.


  5. #45

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan 666 View Post
    I am not satanist, I am against ALL religions. I am particularly against christianity because I live in Italy.
    what do you have against religions and what does living in italy have to do with it?

  6. #46

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Religion is a way to brain wash people and keep them under control.
    Italy is an awful country also because here we have the Church and the Pope.

    Anyway I'd say to stop this flame here and discuss only about Diadochi.


  7. #47

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan 666 View Post
    Religion is a way to brain wash people and keep them under control.
    Italy is an awful country also because here we have the Church and the Pope.

    Anyway I'd say to stop this flame here and discuss only about Diadochi.
    your right , this is a diadochi discussion , but religion isnt a brainwashing method , its a way for people to embrace spiritual needs. But aside from that id love to visit italy and see Rome , what part of italy do you live in?
    Last edited by Athenian Alexandros; August 08, 2009 at 05:39 PM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    I'm not sure that brainwashed is the way to describe people who "embrace" religion!
    Indoctrinated is a far better description.

    Spiritual? Oh yeah, religion and spiritual possession! I get it now!

    "Religion is the fire in which the world burns!"

    If it weren't for religion, we wouldn't have imbeciles like George Bush and Sarah Palin in positions of power!
    Things would be a lot safer too!

    But I digress.

    @ CAL20

    When did Eumenes of Cardia beat Antigonus?

    Antigonus virtually annhilated him in Asia Minor at Orkynia(319 BC). He had far fewer troops too!
    Admittedly, Antigonus tampered with some of Eumenes' cavalry, but all the same, he cleaned Eumenes' clock. To add insult to injury, Antigonus made off with the baggage of Eumenes' army after the battle.

    Paraitakene ; Sure, Eumenes inflicted more casualties, thanks basically to the Silver Shields, but Antigonus won the cavalry battle. The one that forced the Silver Shields and the rest of the phalanx to stop its advance. Antigonus was able to reform his army, but night set in and both sides retired.
    Not exactly your normal run of the mill victory!

    Gabiene ; Basically a reverse of Paraitakene. Both of Eumenes' flank got snookered for one reason or another. One being Antigonus flattened one flank in a cavalry charge. Peukestas, having no heavy cavalry, buggered off. While trying to rally his right wing cavalry, Antigonus got between Eumenes and Eumenes' phalanx. Presumably something like what Seleucus did to Demetrius at Ipsus.
    Eumenes' phalanx, despite being victorius, was surrounded and being attacked by Peithon and his cavalry.
    And if were not for the Silver Shields(yet again), it would have been game, set and match Antigonus.
    As it was, the Silver Shields turned what should have been an arse kicking into a draw.
    Eumenes might have been able to have gotten his army to fight again after both sides retired.
    But yet again, he allowed his baggage train to be stolen by Antigonus.
    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..................................................!

    Eumenes was a very good general. Antigonus was releuctant to kill him. He wanted Eumenes to join him.
    Demetrius urged his father to spare Eumenes' life. But Eumenes was simply too dangerous.
    Of course, had Eumenes joined Antigonus..................!
    Oh well!

    Eumenes might well have been loyal to Alexander and his line. But he might just as well have had no choice.
    He was a greek amongst Macedonians. Had he sought power in his own right, like Antigonus and Kassander etc, I doubt he would have had any Macedonians behind him. He had some difficulty keeping the Macedonian generals and satraps in line during his campaign with Antigonus in the east.
    Which is in stark contrast to the command of Antigonus.
    But while fighting in the name of the Kings, here was something that he did share with Macedonians.
    Loyalty to the line of Philip and Alexander. Which is the line(real or not) that he used on the Macedonians, the Silver Shields and the Satraps to ultimately win command and to keep it.

    Another interesting point about Eumenes that I read was that he ultimately did not understand the character and nature of his men. He failed to gauge the importance of the baggage train and its contents to his soldiers. Not once, but twice. Consequently, he could never combine his aspirations with those of his soldiers.

    Antigenes was given a particularly brutal execution.
    He was burnt alive in a pit.
    Why was he targeted for such a horrible death?
    Billows speculates that this is because Antigenes killed a friend of Antigonus, a certain Philotas, who had been sent by Antigonus to try and bribe the Silver Shields when they had first joined Eumenes in Syria.
    This mission ultimately failed, and nothing more was heard of Philotas.
    Presumably he was killed in a similar(awful) way and Antigenes was responsible.
    It would certainly explain the method of execution that Antigenes recieved.

  9. #49

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    your right , this is a diadochi discussion , but religion isnt a brainwashing method , its a way for people to embrace spiritual needs. But aside from that id love to visit italy and see Rome , what part of italy do you live in?
    Italy has good climate, landscape, food, women ...

    But an awful government and government class. Also the way of thinking is the same of a bunch of sheep, because of the media-indoctrination (all media belong to King Silvio). The italian people is stupid and coward, they are like a mule that follow the man with a carrot.

    I live in the north-east of Italy, some 40miles north of Venice..


  10. #50

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan 666 View Post
    Italy has good climate, landscape, food, women ...

    But an awful government and government class. Also the way of thinking is the same of a bunch of sheep, because of the media-indoctrination (all media belong to King Silvio). The italian people is stupid and coward, they are like a mule that follow the man with a carrot.

    I live in the north-east of Italy, some 40miles north of Venice..
    Well , you had me at women , I live in America and ive always wanted to travel to other places

  11. #51

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    All is explained by Sardaukar, bow down to the knowledge . I thought, although not decisive, he had him beat however the baggage train was taken and this is why the Silver Shields turned him over. I must have been incorrect. If he lost the baggage twice no wonder the Silver Shields turned him over, they were decisive in staving off two defeats then he loses the baggage that was theirs.. oops. Where do you read up on this btw, books/sources whatever?

    @ Spartan: Hearing some of the stuff Silvio gets away with is unreal! But I guess you can when you control most of the media outlets in a country. Wasn't he recently caught admitting to having several ancient Roman archaeological sites on one of his properties? Which is illegal not to notify the authorities. Well I guess what he does is just as bad as some of the politicians in the UK, not to mention the rest of the world.

  12. #52

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    There are three major engagements between Antigonus and Eumenes.

    After the defeat and death of Perdiccas in Egypt, Antigonus demanded, and got the task of defeating the remaining Perdiccan forces in Asia Minor, of which Eumenes was a part.

    Antigonus was able to do a troop exchange with Antipater, where he got a reliable body of Macedonian troops. The Royal army had been on the same side as the forces they were suppossed to fight.
    And they had been mutinous.
    In any event, Antigonus fought Eumenes at the battle of Orkynia, and by hook and crook he won a convincing victory, killin 8,000 of Eumenes soldiers despite having significantly fewer troops.
    Any chance Eumenes had of restoring things evapourated when Antigonus took his baggage train.

    Eumenes was able to escape, but Antigonus eventually hemmed him into Nora(fortress) where discussions opened to his surrender. Eumenes offered terms, what they were I don't know, and Antigonus thought it best to send the terms to Antipater in Europe.

    Antipater died of course, and Eumenes tricked the Antigonid officers into swearing an oath to the Kings, instead of Antigonus. They released him and he then started to recruit troops etc, etc.


    There is no doubt that at Paraitakene Eumenes inflicted more casualties. Significantly more.
    But both sides ultimately retired. And Antigonus retained possession of the battlefield if memory serves me right. Whatever that counts for?
    Had it not been for a well timed cavalry charge by Antigonus, it very well could have been game, set and match for Eumenes.
    Still, most people tend to view Paraitakene as a draw. As I do.

    Gabiene seems to have been somewhat more even.
    Antigonus won on both wings. Antigonus won the flank battles, but lost in the centre.
    I expect casualties were far more even in this battle.
    Perhaps even in Antigonus' favor.
    But again, the battle of Gabiene is generally considered a draw. And I agree.
    But of course, Eumenes got his baggage train stolen, yet again.
    And the rest, as they say, is history.

    I take my hat off to Eumenes all the same. Unfortunately, he ran into an Antigonus at the top of his game.
    That he basically played him to two draws is impressive. Had he not lost his baggage train, who knows what might have happened?

    The Antigonus that bettered Eumenes would never have lost the Ipsus campaign.
    Which speaks volumes about Eumenes.

  13. #53

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Cheers for the information . That's why I quite like Eumenes, a bit of an under dog. Although he failed as you say he managed to come off with two draws against Antigonus. I am not too sure so this is so apologies if I'm wrong. But did Eumenes even command any troops when he was serving with Alexander? Just I know he was more of a private secretary to Philip and I thought he would have continued that role to Alexander. If so he must have been quite inexperienced in commanding troops first hand, therefore being able to fight these battles relatively well against an experienced general such as Antigonus is quite impressive. Like I say correct me if i'm wrong i'm not too sure .

  14. #54

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal20 View Post
    Spartan: Hearing some of the stuff Silvio gets away with is unreal! But I guess you can when you control most of the media outlets in a country. Wasn't he recently caught admitting to having several ancient Roman archaeological sites on one of his properties? Which is illegal not to notify the authorities. Well I guess what he does is just as bad as some of the politicians in the UK, not to mention the rest of the world.
    I'd be surprised to know of something LEGAL he does...the worst thing is that the majority of this bunch of sheep called "italian people" would follow him down an abyss. That's the inconvenient of democracy and of giving everyone the right to vote.

    About the sources Sardaukar is posting...in Wikipedia you can find a nice page about the Wars of the Diadochi, but it's not that good. It's better for you to search with a searching engine some articles or books written by historians.

    I have more or less the very same informations provided by Sardaukar, I got them from an Italian History site http://cronologia.leonardo.it/


  15. #55

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Eumenes also defeated Craterus in battle. And Craterus was killed.

    That I am aware of, Eumenes did not have a command under Alexander.
    He may have commanded some troops here and there of course, but that I know of, he had no independent command under Alexander.

    It is suprising that he came from nowhere and was duking it out with generals such as Antigonus and Craterus.
    Still, he was personal secretary to Alexander. It figures something would rub off.

    I think you are right. Eumenes was secretary to Phillip.

    I would add that Eumenes almost certainly would have had military training in his upbringing. So perhaps it was just a matter of getting a chance to show off his military talents?

  16. #56

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    I already posted the link to Wiki about the Diadoch wars in a prior post on this thread.
    And while it gives a good overview, a closer look shows some flaws.

    Most of my info comes from books I have.

    I'll post a list of all the books I have.

  17. #57
    messiah's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Sardaukar One, can I please have your brain?


  18. #58
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Sardaukar One, can I please have your brain?
    Next thing people will be asking to have his babies for all we know...

  19. #59
    messiah's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    Next thing people will be asking to have his babies for all we know...


    I like this time in history, but I can't get all of these things (talking about the Diadochi wars) in my head unlike many others. There are only two other people I know with such knowledge of this era, both of them can be found in .com: Messalla Corvinus and Dogbeard.

    Many, many, many people are very smart in history, but these three people (the above and SO) are the smartest I know aside from some documentary makers and book writers.

    Anyway, back on topic. Most successful Diadochi Kingdom? Ptolemaic Empire. They held the bread basket of the Mediterranean and survived for the longest time. Greatest Diadochi Kingdom? The Seleucid Empire. They held many lands which gave them wealth and a large diversity of troops. If not for the lack of attention for the east, they could've survived longer*. The "What if" strongest Diadochi Kingdom? The one of Antigonos whats-his-name. He was close to remaking the Empire and it took all of his enemies to join together to beat him. If they wouldn't ally, he would've crushed them one by one.

    *I think the Seleucids can't really be blamed for not paying attention to the east. They did not have the manpower to defend and launch assaults from both the east and the west. IMO it was simply impossible so they stayed with the region where they have a larger trading web - the west (though the east had India and China).


  20. #60

    Default Re: The greatest diadochi kingdom

    The Ptolemaic Empire is the most successful simply because it lasted the longest.
    With Anthony's defeat at Actium, they were effectively finished.
    Though Cleopatra's suicide the following year is probably when you sign off on the Ptolemies.

    The Seleucids more or less finished the Ptolemies off as a military power at Panion in 200 BC.
    This battle ended the contest for Syria and the rest of the Levant.
    I think the Ptolemies made efforts to get the Levant back, but they were never the same after Panion as a military power.
    Its also the crowning moment in the career of Antiochus III the Great!
    In my opinion, Antiochus foolishly rejected the oppurtunity to invade and take Egypt down.
    He went for the much easier Ptolemaic holdings in Asia Minor.

    I will give the Ptolemies this. They were oppurtunists of the highest order. And they never tried to take more than they could handle. At least thats how it seems to me.
    While the other dynasts were fighting Antigonus, Ptolemy took much of the Levant back.
    Could not have done this had Antigonus not been occupied elsewhere.
    When Demetrius returned to Macedonia, Ptolemy was able to take Cyprus, and eventually Sidon and Tyre.
    When Seleucus was murdered, Asia Minor quickly became a mess. Ptolemy II grabbed most of the southern coastline of Asia Minor.
    Basically, if you looked the otherway, the Ptollemies would rob you blind.
    They got a lot off the graft of others.
    And without Rome's patronage, Antiochus IV would certainly have done them in.

    When Ptolemy took over Egypt, he inherited the richest satrapy in the empire. More than likely anyway. I'm not sure that Egypt was the cash cow it was this early on in its history with regards the European powers. Though it was clearly very rich.

    Yet the kingdom of Antigonus is reported to have had an annual income of 11,000 talents per year.
    This tally almost certainly did not include the east as he really had no direct control of some of these provinces.
    His kingdom probably only relates to Asia Minor and northern Syria. And maybe Media and Babylon.
    Regardless, this is a huge amount.
    Egypt could not compete financially with that. Especially when they lost all their holdings in the levant.
    And the loss of Cyprus won't have helped either.
    One of the main reasons for war with Antigonus was that he had a huge armament, and was able to keep them all under arms.
    By Ipsus, his military had increased from 60,000-80,000 men to 120,000 plus. And he added a pretty powerful navy.
    Antigonus's income from his territories may well have increased as evidenced by a significant increase in his armed forces from the end of the second diadoch wars to the Ipsus campaign.
    His income from Asia Minor, Cyprus and the Levant dwarfed anything any of the dynasts could afford.
    Of course, Antigonus was the only individual who was able to rule these territories effectively till the Romans.
    But considering how well Antigonus did with these territories, I find it incredible that the Seleucids seemingly did not give Asia Minor their full attention.
    Asia Minor wasn't only just a cash cow, it was an excellent area for recruiting soldiers. Cappadocian horse, as used by Eumenes against Craterus, and there were plenty of Greek cities and colonies who could provide soldiers for the phalanx and sailors for the navy.
    Plus greeks were highly prized as administrators etc.

    The general view is that the Seleucids got too entangled in the east. They lost focus on Asia Minor, where a number of relatively minor dynasts were allowed to grow and flourish e.g. Pontus, Bithynia, Cappadocia and Pergamum.
    The eastern anabis of Antiochus III, where he cowed Parthia and Bactria back into submission, ultimately proved to be a short term fix only.
    It was pointless to leave garrisons as they faced the threat of being overwhelmed once Antiochus left the region.
    And relief forces would almost certainly never get there in time even if the alarm could be raised.
    If Antiochus left a major force in these areas, whose to say they also wouldn't eventually rebel and head off on their own like Bactria?
    And these troops were required elsewhere. Antiochus didn't have troops to spare.

    Antiochus Sidetes lost 80,000 men whilst retaking Iran and Iraq from the Parthians. In fact, the number of people lost is probably closer to 250,000-300,000.
    The army took their families. And there would have been the usual assortment of merchants, money lenders, carpenters, slaves etc accompanying them.

    The Seleucids wasted a lot of energy trying to hold down the east, and frankly, got little in return for it.
    Last edited by Sardaukar One; August 11, 2009 at 06:25 PM.

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