Athens vs. Sparta

[Spartan198]

Yes. Except he invented his own 'einsteinian religion'. In which god is a metaphor for all of nature's and the universe's mysteries.

I can't say I disagree with that logic.

[DimeBagHo]

13lackGu4rd: The Code of Ur-Nammu (c. 2050 BC, the oldest written legal code that still exists) and Mosaic law both contain a blanket prohibition on murder. In the case of Athenian law, both the laws of Draco and Solon contain general laws against homicide (as in modern law, the Athenian laws differentiated between intentional and unintentional killing). It was even illegal for a citizen slave owner to kill one of his own slaves.

So while the idea that all human life has value might not be universal, it certainly is not new. You can find it in the oldest legal, religious, and moral texts that we have.

On the subject of Science and religious belief:

Newton was a devout Christian, and is perhaps the single most important figure in the history of science. Up until the mid 19th century almost all scientists were religious, even if many did not subscribe to any orthodox religion (from c. 1700 - c. 1850 there was a trend towards Deism). The reason for that was the power of the argument from design. The fact that the "mysteries" of nature were accessible to reason made the argument even more compelling for scientists, because it strongly suggested that a rational intelligence lay behind natural phenomena.

Hume put the first dent in the argument from design when he showed that you could get a very impressive design without a very impressive designer, but it was Darwin who finally killed the argument by showing that you could get apparent design without any designer at all. Since then scientists have steadily moved towards atheist or agnostic views.

All the same, given the fact that modern science was born into a thoroughly Christian world, and begun by very Christian men, and that it continued to prosper in that Christian world for some centuries before Darwin came a long, it is implausible to claim that there is a fundamental conflict between Christianity and science.

[AchillesXX]

Well said DBH. I couldn't agree more.

[Visiar]

Well said DBH plus rep

[scubatim84]

just because it seems moderate doesnt make it right. There is a huge difference between losing a baby to disease you cant help and simply leaving an infant to die . I see the value of one life as a priceless treasure. I dont know how you view human life but that is my opinion on it. On another point , this debate started as Athens vs Sparta not peoples views on how valuable a life is

I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I saw such a glaring historical inaccuracy not being corrected that I had to put my 2 cents in. For the record, Athens discarded deformed babies just like Sparta did. It wasn't simply a personal decision here and there...it happened all the time. Athenian families, for every male heir, had to give a certain portion of their estate to that heir because he would require a significant amount to own his own home and maintain the family's standard of living. It was also considered blasphemous in Athens to not do this for your sons. For the daughters, it was a similar situation, as the father had to provide the daughter with a sufficient dowry to ensure that she received a good husband and marriage to a good family.

For the aforementioned reasons, it was usually not considered economical to keep the deformed ones who would simply be a burden. They were discarded in a pot in the Agora and that was it. People would take the lesser deformed ones and raise them as slaves, and as for the more deformed ones, they died of exposure very quickly.

Sparta was not the evil Greek city state in this aspect of ancient civilization. They did what everyone else did. The argument that it was a state decree versus personal decision doesn't matter...either way it was done on a similar level, perhaps not in absolute numbers due to Sparta's low population but in percentage of births, so I don't see why the distinction matters. I have not yet read up on the other city states, but I'm sure Thebes, Corinth, Syracuse, etc. did the same thing.

[Durnaug]

sparta also showed bravery at thermopylae and platea but did not contribute to basically anything after that

This is not strictly true. The writers of the US Constitution admired the Spartan "government" of checks and balances. This inspired their creation of the US Constitution.

The US framers feared pure Athenian democracy. They were all well read on Thucydides' account of the conflict between Sparta and Athens. Thucydides blames Athenian democracy for causing wars.

[scubatim84]

This is not strictly true. The writers of the US Constitution admired the Spartan "government" of checks and balances. This inspired their creation of the US Constitution.

The US framers feared pure Athenian democracy. They were all well read on Thucydides' account of the conflict between Sparta and Athens. Thucydides blames Athenian democracy for causing wars.

Huh, I didn't know that...interesting. Although I don't think the writers of the US Constitution ever planned on "professional politicians" destroying our government as we know it. Regardless of intent, it has become very bastardized compared to what it was meant to be.

I believe it was Aristotle who said that 6 months was the ideal term for a politician...anything less, and he cannot get anything done, anything more and he becomes corrupt by the power he wields.

[FrozenSol]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War it speaks for itself Sparta won but Athens flourish by trade

[Dog Fart]

Thracians were better.

[Durnaug]

I believe it was Aristotle who said that 6 months was the ideal term for a politician...anything less, and he cannot get anything done, anything more and he becomes corrupt by the power he wields.

I think also that Aristotle, unlike Socrates and Plato, did not admire the Spartan "constitution". He admired their virtue of equality but criticised the helot system.

The Spartan way of government and life has been an influence on thinkers from the time of Classical Greece (when it was thought by many to be the perfect way of governing) to modern times.

Unfortunately it has been a malign influence as much as a benign one. That's ideas for you

[EDIT] But back on topic...well I suppose Sparta won the war but lost the peace. But if we are talking personal favourites, I just love the bonkers-mad story of Sparta.

One of my favourite stories about Sparta is how they reacted to the news that Athens had invaded Sryacuse, a Greek city friendly to Sparta. The Spartans were persuaded to send one general to the beleaguered city and he turned the whole campaign around by turning the Sryacusans into a disciplined army.

So the Spartan "way" is not just about creating the perfect warrior but also the perfect army.

[discet]

I Believe that Athens was single most defining area for the development of western civilization. But I have severe doubts that if Sparta wasn't there they'd have lasted. I believe that their continuousfueding warfare developed the military profession in both city states. As is said

"From your enemies not your friends do cities learn to build high walls"

Without this intense arms competition, marathon would be known as the day when persia established their first major european colony instead of the day where western civilization survived the greatest army in the world.

So for this reason I believe they are both important, that while Athens had the scholars that planted our civilization, Sparta was literally and metaphorically the shield that let the sapling grow.

So thats my opinion on the matter

[scubatim84]

I Believe that Athens was single most defining area for the development of western civilization. But I have severe doubts that if Sparta wasn't there they'd have lasted. I believe that their continuousfueding warfare developed the military profession in both city states. As is said

"From your enemies not your friends do cities learn to build high walls"

Without this intense arms competition, marathon would be known as the day when persia established their first major european colony instead of the day where western civilization survived the greatest army in the world.

So for this reason I believe they are both important, that while Athens had the scholars that planted our civilization, Sparta was literally and metaphorically the shield that let the sapling grow.

So thats my opinion on the matter

You make an excellent point. Seconded.

[Spartan198]

So for this reason I believe they are both important, that while Athens had the scholars that planted our civilization, Sparta was literally and metaphorically the shield that let the sapling grow.

Quite well said, I agree completely. Athens gave us philosophy, art, and so on while Sparta gave us the means of defending those things.

[FrozenSol]

i know this is not the place but could you tell me how to change a faction color tnx

[Dog Fart]

yeah but the thracians were still better.

[albernmatt]

I agree, the greek Peloponnesian War destroyed the whole world and not the Persians to play against each other. If Sparta and Athens had gathered at the summit of their power, they would not have been the undisputed hegemony of Greece, at least for now, anyway.

[Pericles the Olympian]

i personally consider the spartans to be thugs killing deformed infants isn't that what the germans in WW2 did?besides what great works did the spartans leave anyway nothing thats what.athens fought just as bravely at marathon and platea as the spartans.athens was far superior to the spartans in culture and just as brave.now i admit the peloponnesian war was a waste of time and manpower sparta should have just submitted to athens as the leader of the hellenistic world.

[medievaldude]

i personally consider the spartans to be thugs killing deformed infants isn't that what the germans in WW2 did?besides what great works did the spartans leave anyway nothing thats what.athens fought just as bravely at marathon and platea as the spartans.athens was far superior to the spartans in culture and just as brave.now i admit the peloponnesian war was a waste of time and manpower sparta should have just submitted to athens as the leader of the hellenistic world.

Well the Lacedaemonians didnt leave nothing but that would be quite a discussion.


Athens genrally had a cooler society but you are relating two different societies, governments unlike Athens in Sparta women had more power and got to go to school too. they also had poets example marching songs well i cant explain they would chant and stuff whatnot. well in your point you would just have to blame it on Lycurgus . anyways its government was a oligarchy, so you cant say the kings were the decision makers most of the times. though i agree the Peloponnesian war was costly and somewhat of a waste and lead to there defeats in the future



well imo i consider both Athens and Sparta equal i dont favour one over another so thats how i'll end this

well atleast Cleomenes III brought back the brief spartan dominance. i find the Euro cup 2004 a great demonstration of spartan hegemony then failing to succeed in later years like in euro 08... (Greek soccer team i mean) hopefully you guys get my point

[avion365]

i believe athens contributed to western civilization more and showed bravery at marathon , sparta also showed bravery at thermopylae and platea but did not contribute to basically anything after that

badassery?

[Callimachus]

Athens is great for culture,democracy, architecture, poetry, and their military isn't anything to snuff at, but thermopylae will always madge the spartans be remembered as top tier soldiers of the ancient world