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Thread: Athens vs. Sparta

  1. #1
    Visiar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Athens vs. Sparta

    I know greece is a unified faction but i want to know everyones opinion. if somebody already put a thread like this in xgm i haven't seen it. I can imagine a lot of arguments.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    i believe athens contributed to western civilization more and showed bravery at marathon , sparta also showed bravery at thermopylae and platea but did not contribute to basically anything after that

  3. #3

  4. #4

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    I would go for Sparta, since I admire the society that my name had created.
    If we're talking about the RTW timeframe I'd have to go with Athens, because after the battle of Leuctra Sparta as we love it was no more.


    I'm immortal! Unfortunately it wears off after 80 years..

  5. #5

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    i would hate to live in sparta though due to the harsh life for children , killing of infants if they were weak and the whole living with men only until your 30 , other than that i think sparta was a heroic state

  6. #6

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    "... the whole living with men only until your 30 , other than that i think sparta was a heroic state"
    I'd have to correct you on that. From age 20 men were allowed to marry a woman, and see her at night once in a while. This was to raise their libido to the fullest so that they could have passionate and good sex, and therefore create strong children. Instead of humping about like rabbits.

    So during the day you worked out and fought, whilst during the night you had sex (occasionally)!
    You could also read books at Athens.

    I hereby rest my case.

    N.B. just trying to create a discussion.


    I'm immortal! Unfortunately it wears off after 80 years..

  7. #7

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycurgus the Lawgiver View Post
    I'd have to correct you on that. From age 20 men were allowed to marry a woman, and see her at night once in a while. This was to raise their libido to the fullest so that they could have passionate and good sex, and therefore create strong children. Instead of humping about like rabbits.

    So during the day you worked out and fought, whilst during the night you had sex (occasionally)!
    You could also read books at Athens.

    I hereby rest my case.

    N.B. just trying to create a discussion.
    I see , well i guess that sounds right but i wouldnt want the state telling me how i should live my life , ive always loved the spartan legacy but the lifestyle wouldnt suit me very well , im just glad there are people here who know their facts , but aside from that whats your opinion on argos,corinth and thebes? in that order please

  8. #8
    Spartan198's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    i would hate to live in sparta though due to the harsh life for children , killing of infants if they were weak
    Like Phalanx300 said at some point in the topic I linked to above, there's no physical proof of that. Sickly or deformed babies would have been discarded regardless of culture.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
    Like Phalanx300 said at some point in the topic I linked to above, there's no physical proof of that. Sickly or deformed babies would have been discarded regardless of culture.
    ive never heard of the same thing happening in the other greek states, privately babies could have been discarded but sparta made it a act of official state buisness to choose who was worthy to live or not

  10. #10
    Visiar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    ive never heard of the same thing happening in the other greek states, privately babies could have been discarded but sparta made it a act of official state buisness to choose who was worthy to live or not
    just like spartan198 said. it was on account of sickness or being deformed as these people wouldn't grow up to be good soldiers. Babies weren't killed just cause people wanted to. If they allowed them to grow up there would be gaps in the phalanx. Other cities didn't kill babies because every citizen wasn't soldier. In Sparta everyone was.
    Last edited by Visiar; July 27, 2009 at 11:44 PM.




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  11. #11

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by visiar View Post
    just like spartan198 said. it was on account of sickness or being deformed as these people wouldn't grow up to be good soldiers. Babies weren't killed just cause people wanted to. If they allowed them to grow up there would be gaps in the phalanx. Other cities didn't kill babies because every citizen wasn't soldier. In Sparta everyone was.
    they could have been used as other help to the state, sparta had image/reputation issues

  12. #12
    Spartan198's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    they could have been used as other help to the state, sparta had image/reputation issues
    Yeah, I can really see this guy fixing any image problems Sparta may have had.




  13. #13

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
    Yeah, I can really see this guy fixing any image problems Sparta may have had.



    i knew someone would bring that up but remember, 300 was innacurate my friend, this guy could have been a worker or a weaponsmaker , i meant sparta was sensitive about the way they were viewed

  14. #14
    Spartan198's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    i knew someone would bring that up but remember, 300 was innacurate my friend
    This I know, but deformity is deformity whether fiction or reality and there have been historical individuals that were just as deformed, if not more so. Joseph Merrick, for example.
    this guy could have been a worker or a weaponsmaker
    Helots and Periokoi filled roles like that.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
    This I know, but deformity is deformity whether fiction or reality and there have been historical individuals that were just as deformed, if not more so. Joseph Merrick, for example.

    Helots and Periokoi filled roles like that.
    deformity is everywhere yes ,and im aware of the roles in spartan society concerning lower classes but i meant that the ones like him could have worked like the helots and perikoi or like i said become blacksmiths, i believe these alternatives were better than death

  16. #16

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Sparta was weak, their army at the time was mainly filled with mercenary armies, under the control of Nabis. This was from 200 BC until 190 BC. Rome, Macedonians and allied Greek cities took Sparta. Sparta had previously lost to Thebes, in the Peloponesian war. Spartans sucked, their society was unstable due to the amount of helots and slaves.

    300 isnt accurate, no, but I doubt XGM or even EB are more accurate than 300 in hoplite representation. All of them had cloaks on their hoplites, which was wrong, hoplites took it off during battle as it would have been a burden. Hoplites wore linen armour, not bronze or nude. Hoplites had reserve unit carrying spears vertically or at an angle, both mods and the movie are wrong in that too. Countless things to mention....

  17. #17

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Sparta was weak, their army at the time was mainly filled with mercenary armies, under the control of Nabis. This was from 200 BC until 190 BC. Rome, Macedonians and allied Greek cities took Sparta. Sparta had previously lost to Thebes, in the Peloponesian war. Spartans sucked, their society was unstable due to the amount of helots and slaves.
    I don't agree with you, Sparta wasn't weak. If you need three superpowers (Rome, Macedonians and Achaeans) to took just one city, you can't say "Sparta was weak". Even Pyrrhos wasn't able to defeat Spartan womens and children with all of his veterans and elephants.

    And, of course, Sparta hadn't lost to Thebes in Peloponesian war, actually Sparta won that war. Sparta lost to Thebes at Leuctra just due to Epaminondas geniality.

    IMHO Sparta reached it's zenith under rule of Kleomenes III. during the Kleomenean war in 228 BC – 222 BC, but they lost again.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by visiar View Post
    just like spartan198 said. it was on account of sickness or being deformed as these people wouldn't grow up to be good soldiers. Babies weren't killed just cause people wanted to. If they allowed them to grow up there would be gaps in the phalanx. Other cities didn't kill babies because every citizen wasn't soldier. In Sparta everyone was.
    Do you know anything about how little medical care/ high infant mortality rate seen in the ancient world?

    Most babies/small children died before reaching adulthood, is it cost effective to try and raise a damaged child which will take much more time and effort than other children and the "child" never be able to contribute to the family.

    Ideology is all very good when you live in a rich society but try living in one barley above subsistance farming and you get an whole new view on what is right and wrong.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcansson View Post
    I don't agree with you, Sparta wasn't weak. If you need three superpowers (Rome, Macedonians and Achaeans) to took just one city, you can't say "Sparta was weak". Even Pyrrhos wasn't able to defeat Spartan womens and children with all of his veterans and elephants.

    And, of course, Sparta hadn't lost to Thebes in Peloponesian war, actually Sparta won that war. Sparta lost to Thebes at Leuctra just due to Epaminondas geniality.

    IMHO Sparta reached it's zenith under rule of Kleomenes III. during the Kleomenean war in 228 BC – 222 BC, but they lost again.
    i agree that sparta wasnt weak but it had come to rely heavily on mercenaries. the seige of sparta was only lifted when spartan/macedonian reinforcements arrived, but the women , children and helots put up a heroic resistance

  20. #20

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Warlord View Post
    Do you know anything about how little medical care/ high infant mortality rate seen in the ancient world?

    Most babies/small children died before reaching adulthood, is it cost effective to try and raise a damaged child which will take much more time and effort than other children and the "child" never be able to contribute to the family.

    Ideology is all very good when you live in a rich society but try living in one barley above subsistance farming and you get an whole new view on what is right and wrong.
    The value of human life is a principal rule , even in a poor society. The spartans didnt accept the weak/deformed because they judged them not worthy, sparta controlled much land for farming in laconia and could afford to feed its people

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