Was Troy in Baltic Sea? (a weird theory)

[Charontas]

What would be the incentive to conquer a city so far away? I mean, there are plenty of historians that speculate that bringing back Helene was just an excuse to gain controle over the trade route going trough the Dardanelles.

If that wasn't the case, then what was it?

[MaximiIian]

If Helen and the situation surrounding her even existed; there is still no consensus on whether any of the specific figures of the Troy legend actually existed as the myths describe them (though they are possibly based on real people in the war).

However, as far as I can tell, the agreement of scholars who do suppose her existence is that, yes, any mission to retrieve her would have been merely a flimsy justification for a war over trade routes between an ambitious Mycenaean hegemon and a Asuwan city-state.

[Alsatian]

If Helen and the situation surrounding her even existed; there is still no consensus on whether any of the specific figures of the Troy legend actually existed as the myths describe them (though they are possibly based on real people in the war).

However, as far as I can tell, the agreement of scholars who do suppose her existence is that, yes, any mission to retrieve her would have been merely a flimsy justification for a war over trade routes between an ambitious Mycenaean hegemon and a Asuwan city-state.

I would bet that the story of Helen was most likely invented afterwards to justify the war.

[MaximiIian]

That would my opinion, as well. But we have no way of knowing for certain. Just as we have no way of knowing if Romulus and Remus were real (though on that issue, I put my money on "yes").

[Alsatian]

That would my opinion, as well. But we have no way of knowing for certain. Just as we have no way of knowing if Romulus and Remus were real (though on that issue, I put my money on "yes").

Of course, but humans love to speculate.

As evident by this Baltic Troy theory

[Barry Goldwater]

No, just no. To begin with, how could the Mycenaeans even hope to manage such a long journey? And if the Trojan War really happened, how the hell are you supposed to supply an army that far away from home, much less besiege some fortified city? What would be the point of attacking that city in the first place?

[My Favorite Martian]

They would have needed resuply bases along the shores they passed. Desipte this unlikely case, there was some trade between the baltic bassin and the mediterranean probably by the help of mediators. Amber has found afaik already in the neolithic period its way hereby.

[Markas]

So far as I can tell the author believes that it all occured in the baltic and the Myceneans moved to greece later down the Dnieper. No, really.

[My Favorite Martian]

It is rich of imagination.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

So far as I can tell the author believes that it all occured in the baltic and the Myceneans moved to greece later down the Dnieper. No, really.

[Hiero of Syracuse]

No, just no. To begin with, how could the Mycenaeans even hope to manage such a long journey? And if the Trojan War really happened, how the hell are you supposed to supply an army that far away from home, much less besiege some fortified city? What would be the point of attacking that city in the first place?

For glory and riches, and to win back Helen's hand. But it is a bit of a stretch, I doubt they would even hope to reach a land that far away, and Troy has been found in Turkey.

[Watchman]

Trans-European trade along the "Amber Route" of the major Central European rivers is nothing new, having been in full swing already during the Stone Age. I can guarantee, however, that *nobody* was going to move a freakin' army along those selfsame rivers given the low primary productivity of pretty much entire Greater Germany before the advent of the heavy iron plough and the general pointlessness of the exercise.

Also, no such fortified cities around the Baltic period. Nor chariot warfare, given that the whole damn region was basically either forest or marshland and well into modern times light infantry country par excellence.

Unlike the Aegean region, where the chariot is well recorded to have played an important role in warfare and powerful, well-fortified city-states straddling lucrative trade routes go way back.

And the OP gets major TL;DR demerits.

/thread.

[KingOfTheIsles]

Not that I'm agreeing with the OP, but it's clear that most people haven't fully grasped what the theory is about. It isn't saying that the Greeks were already in Greece, it's basically saying that the Illiad is a reimagining by Homer of an ancient folk tale of the Greek people, who once (according to this guy, anyway) lived on the shores of the Baltic Sea. So the objections along the lines of "how would the Greeks sail all that way" are entirely invalid and missing the point. I know it's a hell of a lot of text, people, but if you haven't read it, maybe it's better to just not comment?

So far as I can tell the author believes that it all occured in the baltic and the Myceneans moved to greece later down the Dnieper. No, really.

The only scary thing about this quote is that people seem to be under the impression that it's impossible. Seeing as it's a fairly mainstream theory that Greek-speaking peoples did enter Greece from the north, and the journey that the author is proposing is pretty much exactly the same as the well-supported and uncontroversial migration of Slavic speaking peoples into the Balkans in historic times, I can only assume the people face-palming over that are doing so because of ignorance of well-documented historical precedent.

Whilst I don't know enough about the geography of the respective regions to definitively say one way or the other about this theory, it is true that the identification of Troy in its current location is still somewhat controversial and certainly the geography as given by Homer in the Illiad and Odyssey often don't match real-world geographical locations at all, as noted in the OP. Perhaps I am just playing devil's advocate here, but the vast majority of the objections to the claim have obviously been made by people who haven't actually read the first post, and are instead just parroting the mainstream theory without really having the tools to evaluate it themselves.

I'd definitely welcome an actual educated rebuttal, rather than the usual chorus of uninformed dismissal.

[Watchman]

There's the bit of a prolbem in that AFAIK it's pretty well known where the Doric invaders came from though - namely, the highlands north of Hellas and the lower Danube region. Also were linguistically related to the Myceneans they overran and absorbed IIRC, and of course there's zero archeological evidence of any southwards migration of that kind from the relevant time period and regions AFAIK.

Nevermind now that insofar as is known of the societies of the Late Bronze Age Baltic zone, such an ancient war would have been a practical impossibility in any case.

[DAVIDE]

t's basically saying that the Illiad is a reimagining by Homer of an ancient folk tale of the Greek people, who once (according to this guy, anyway) lived on the shores of the Baltic Sea.

Exactly. Author's saying Iliad towns (Sparta, Troy etc.) were located into the Baltic area. Few years/centuries before Achaean mass emigration towards Peloponnese. The author even think Troyan war had place 200 hundred years circa, before the conventional date 1200 Bc

[KingOfTheIsles]

There's the bit of a prolbem in that AFAIK it's pretty well known where the Doric invaders came from though - namely, the highlands north of Hellas and the lower Danube region. Also were linguistically related to the Myceneans they overran and absorbed IIRC, and of course there's zero archeological evidence of any southwards migration of that kind from the relevant time period and regions AFAIK.

Ultimately, the Hellenic-speaking people came from elsewhere. Most say the ukrainian steppe, others have other theories. I'd be inclined towards the former.

Nevermind now that insofar as is known of the societies of the Late Bronze Age Baltic zone, such an ancient war would have been a practical impossibility in any case.

That's what I thought too, but on the other hand, as pointed out in the OP, the Nordic Bronze Age was in full swing at the time, and the region was a lot warmer. Unfortunately, the dates don't really match the possible migration, as the larger climate changes in northern europe, which probably motivated an expansion of germanic spekaing peoples, didn't occur till circa 700bc. Though of course you have to bear in mind the possibility that the scale of the war may have been somewhat overexaggerated.

[My Favorite Martian]

Well, how do you want to know what languages have been spoken Late-Bronze and Early-Iron in the Baltic area? How do you want to know from where a population has moved to where, if at all?

[Watchman]

Ultimately, the Hellenic-speaking people came from elsewhere. Most say the ukrainian steppe, others have other theories. I'd be inclined towards the former.

Everyone came from somewhere else. But this particular branch of the extended Indo-European family had AFAIK been there for *quite* a while already.

That's what I thought too, but on the other hand, as pointed out in the OP, the Nordic Bronze Age was in full swing at the time, and the region was a lot warmer. Unfortunately, the dates don't really match the possible migration, as the larger climate changes in northern europe, which probably motivated an expansion of germanic spekaing peoples, didn't occur till circa 700bc. Though of course you have to bear in mind the possibility that the scale of the war may have been somewhat overexaggerated.

The point being, AFAIK archeology in the region shows no hint of poilities of the size and scale required to wage "formal" wars of the kind the Iliad is based on. Nevermind now fortifications above the level of the simple hill-fort. More like occasional tribal squabbling and raiding.
You don't really get that level of stuff before something like the Viking Age, by which point the heavy plough (and the early stages of the Medieval Warm Period) had already begun sea changes in Northern European demographics.

Also, lack of archeological traces of any major migrations of the kind described, nevermind now of the corollary population movements along the route.

[My Favorite Martian]

People lived in more or less scattered farmsteads around Europe outside of the mediterranean area during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age as they already done during the Neolithic. The Illias is settled in a more developped context.

[KingOfTheIsles]

Everyone came from somewhere else. But this particular branch of the extended Indo-European family had AFAIK been there for *quite* a while already.

Really? I was under the impression that greek-speaking peoples only entered the area in around 1500bc. Seeing as the Trojan War is popularly dated t0 1300bc, that isn't really that long in my eyes.

The point being, AFAIK archeology in the region shows no hint of poilities of the size and scale required to wage "formal" wars of the kind the Iliad is based on. Nevermind now fortifications above the level of the simple hill-fort. More like occasional tribal squabbling and raiding.
You don't really get that level of stuff before something like the Viking Age, by which point the heavy plough (and the early stages of the Medieval Warm Period) had already begun sea changes in Northern European demographics.

Or perhaps the legend was indeed a story about tribal squabbling, but put in a new context as the greek invaders arrived in the more populous lands of the south. Stories can always be embellished, changed and adapted to a new location.

Also, lack of archeological traces of any major migrations of the kind described, nevermind now of the corollary population movements along the route.

Who said there has to be a major population shift? The current model of the spread of IE postulates a series of invasions and subsequent occupations by a warrior elite, who wouldn't leave an archaeological or genetic trace. Which I find suspect, but is currently mainstream and acceptable so that argument isn't necessarily valid.