How could the shields be up...if they don't know we're comin'...?
RAVENOUS! PULL UP! ALL RAVENOUSES PULL UP! THE SHIELDS ARE STILL UP!
IT'S A TRAP
I don't get it, who's arguing for and against the withdrawal from Afghanistan? Darth Ravenous 's opening post is really weak, too the point I don't know what is he arguing.
I find that Darth Ravenous has embarked on an unfortunate trail of weak arguments, as follows:
1. Reminding us of the obvious
2. This point is poorly phrased. He should have mentioned the Taliban government's repeated refusals to turn over Bin Laden, even before the September 11 attacks. However, his logical construction is a non-sequitur (bloke in A-stan attacks us, we invade A-stan) as it doesn't take into account the implications behind the attack.
3. Again, deposing the Taliban régime on the agenda before 9/11. It wasn't a spontaneous decision.
4. is... a trap!
5. Pretty much describes what usually happens in this sort of cockups.
6. So, basically, an entire army, spanning the border of a country, is necessary to find old Bin? Especially considering that as long as that army's there, the man probably won't even come near the Afghan border? And what's so interesting about Bin being outside A-stan (meaning he could be anywhere) rather than inside? Just curious.
Anyhow, I don't think it's a sound opening move. Time shall tell.
An Invasion of Afganistan so America can catch 1 man seems a tad over eccessive. And if you were Bin Laden, would you stay in a country were you were been hunted by the largest military in the world? This whole invasion is a way of getting revenge for 9/11, but doesnt America see that it is just as bad killing countless Afghans than one group of Terrorists killing Americans? An eye for an eye no longer applies.
Well my debate is centered on why we should stay in Afghan and to do this America needs to be reminded of the obvious and that is Bin Laden wherever he is, is a threat and could be planning another attack which is infinitely harder if you have to keep on the run every hour because you have such a large amount of tech and soldiers after you. And I know I started weak but debating for me in writing is much harder then talking about it. Another point also is if you might see this is my first step into the ring so I don't expect to be perfect or amazingly good at phrasing my openings.
Some quick bullet points:
Good luck Darth, but I cannot see a winning strategy for you.
- The problem with staying is that this is a NATO operation in defense of an attack against a NATO country. NATO cannot leave until the USA leaves.
- The group responsible for the attack have been scattered and in some members killed. They are no longer the government.
- As long as the Americans and Europeans remain, the people of Afghanistan and the governments in the region will never take sufficient responsibility for their own affairs. Both Pakistan and Iran are quite capable of doing the duties now performed by NATO and the USA. The USA can help a bit with cash, but that should be all the involvement from here forward.
- If the problem occurs again, we go in again and break more of Sec. Powell's pottery. This is not difficult to do, though admittedly very unlikely to be needed.
- We have no moral responsibility or even ability to bring order out of the chaos of central Asia. We only have a responsibility for our own national defense. That mission is completed.
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Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri
Excellent points all around but I here are some of my own,
- If we leave many people living in the USA could consider us weaker for not finishing what we originally started. I would be one of these people. If we cannot finish our own battles do to the bad planning of the Goverment then how far downhill have we come NATO is based as a US operation so it makes since for them to stay there?
- Just because they no longer hold the goverment does not mean that are not still extremely dangerous. They must be found lest they start fresh somewhere else and launch another attack.
- If we leave now then why should Iran and Afghanistan do anything about their own problems? Sure we can help with money but as any one can plainly see we are waging our own finacial battle and because of this there are huge amounts of un-employment which mean there are thousands of troops who without the goverment paycheck for active duty will have no means of supporting themselves once they return.
- To leave and come back would be more foolish then to keep staying there including a rise in unrest with troops.
- The mission is not complete because Bin Laden escaped true it is not our goverments problem to clear out unrest in centeral Asia but until Bin Laden is found and his remain members hunted down we cannot assume that once we leave he will remain in hiding.
So... is rome going to reply?
He told me he'd respond on his own time. My imagination tell's me he lives in a time warp so it could be 10 years from now when he responds.
I think it's more worrying you converse with your imagination when trying to debate someone over the internet.
Hell, conversing with your imagination is weird in any setting.
Aye, it's called thinking. Thinking is definitely weird and unsettling.
1st bulletin: Saving face is more important than the security of our nation and the safety of our troops? This is the exact same mentality that Richard Nixon adopted in his "Peace, With Honor" propaganda for expanding the war in Vietnam to Cambodia and Laos. The fact of the matter remains that Middle-Eastern occupation is a mistaken strategy. What do you do in erroneous policies? You correct the mistake, not continue making the same missteps until you've made it impossible to achieve any such objective. The war in Afghanistan is not at all benefitial to our security. We are attacking an indirect partner to terrorist groups rather than the groups themselves.
- If we leave many people living in the USA could consider us weaker for not finishing what we originally started. I would be one of these people. If we cannot finish our own battles do to the bad planning of the Goverment then how far downhill have we come NATO is based as a US operation so it makes since for them to stay there?
- Just because they no longer hold the goverment does not mean that are not still extremely dangerous. They must be found lest they start fresh somewhere else and launch another attack.
- If we leave now then why should Iran and Afghanistan do anything about their own problems? Sure we can help with money but as any one can plainly see we are waging our own finacial battle and because of this there are huge amounts of un-employment which mean there are thousands of troops who without the goverment paycheck for active duty will have no means of supporting themselves once they return.
- To leave and come back would be more foolish then to keep staying there including a rise in unrest with troops.
- The mission is not complete because Bin Laden escaped true it is not our goverments problem to clear out unrest in centeral Asia but until Bin Laden is found and his remain members hunted down we cannot assume that once we leave he will remain in hiding.
2nd: How long do you really think it will take to pacify the region? How do you think the Afghan and Pakistani population is going to react to further inquests and expansion of Western involvement? It creates more sympathy and strengthens the terrorist groups.
3rd: So, we should stay in the war because it helps our federal budget?
4th: According to whom? If it is indeed proven that they are needed there, I'm sure they'll feel more obliged to carry out the mission.
5th: Since when does the current mission have anything to do with finding bin Laden?
Last edited by Admiral Piett; August 09, 2009 at 08:39 AM.
Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri
1. The Taliban nver attacked the USA, the USA told us that they hide the Al-Quada (according to the USA) that was commited the 9/11 acts according to the USA.
2. The government of Afghanistan (the Taliban back then) never attacked the USA nor a NATO member.
3. The current Afghan governemt is corrupt and above all extremely theocratic.
(You know dead sentence/whipping on critisizing Islam.)
4. The government is composed of former (Taliban) warlords.
5. Karzai's rise to power is very very dubious and CIA related.
(I used to have a source, I'll find it.)
6. As for my own country it is completely destroying our small defence budget.
Just to stay in A stan we have retired half of both our tanks and artillery.
Add two frigates and all MPA's
Miss me yet?
I'm curious as to how you come to this conclusion. First off, it seems to me that Pakistan is having enough trouble keeping their own Taliban in check, giving them even more responsibilities on this front will just further weaken the central government's deck of cards. Secondly, the impression I get from my Afghan friends (who all grew up in Afghanistan) is that outside of the Pastuns, Afghans don't really like Pakistan and consider it a meddling foriegn force; much more so than NATO (generally consider more of a neutral, abit 'western' entity). My one friend (who is tajik-pastun) will almost foam at the mouth when you mention Pakistan.Both Pakistan and Iran are quite capable of doing the duties now performed by NATO and the USA. The USA can help a bit with cash, but that should be all the involvement from here forward.
In turn, I would imagine that many pastuns would be equally unimpressed with Iranian troops scattered throughout Afghanistan as they are with western troops.
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2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6) Therefore, God does not exist.
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