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Thread: Suggestions for AoDII

  1. #1

    Default Suggestions for AoDII

    Dear Pompeius Magnus,
    Just to say that I await this mod with maximum eagerness! I love history, and I know, having had the opportunity to exchange with you, that this will be the most historical-detailed mod ever.
    On a side note, just to open what I feel could be an interesting discussion, I have an idea that I feel could be interesting. So far, regarding the acquisition cost of units as well as their maintenance cost, I have seen two main trends: either (as if may in Vanilla) to give costs that are just arbitrary or (as in many good mods) to give costs perfectly aligned with the quality of the units (ie, a "value for money" approach).
    I think that another approach would be to take into consideration the respective cultures of the different factions and use costs to push for a relevant mix of armies, both for the computer and the player. As examples taken from Roman Republican history (but I feel applicable to any timeframe), I feel it would make sense not only to apply pure "value for money" but to introduce a biais that would take into account the fact that, structurally, the Republican Rome was not inclined too much towards cavalry and thus increase the cost (acquisition and possession) of cavalry for Rome, whilst Sarmatian armies, which were, again culturally, horse-friendly, would benefit structurally from lower costs for horse-based units, and maybe higher ones for foot-based units.
    Yours sincerely,
    FFJean

  2. #2
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Hello Jean,
    costs depending on faction + culture will be inlcuded into the mod of course. You are absolutely right if you say that the recruiting costs between Romans, germans and eastern factions should be different.
    Furthermore we will provide several "surprises" concerning this issue - related to our brand new building-structure (for all factions, but esp for the franks in gaul, goths (both tribes), romans and sassies)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Sounds interesting.

    Game of the Fates
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    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Antiochos, perhaps you have also certain ideas? then feel free to post them. We are open for all suggestions.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Maybe another little nugget from the upcoming preview, to get us through the week .

    I have that book:"Warfare in the Classic World". It shows one of the more heavier late roman warships, the Deceres: 200-250 marines, 2 fighting towers and 2-6 catapults.

    While playing AoD1, I have not seen these in the game. There were actually only three levels of warships for the romans. A little boring I thought .

    So I'm wondering if there is going to be change in that area. More flavors in warships .
    I actually really don't know what was being used at the time of Justinian.
    Last edited by William the Silent; July 21, 2009 at 03:43 AM.

  6. #6
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Thank you William
    The research and build of a structure of a new naval-system was finished by my team 2 or 3 months ago.
    You will get more types of ships (much more), the Dromon is inlcuded, new ship-grafics concerning the little UI-cards, and new ship models + new textures for the strat-map.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Dear Pompeius,
    Great to see that this idea (which I can not anymore call mine ;-)) will be factored in your mod. My point is really that such changes should affect both (and most probably differently):
    - the acquisition cost/time of a unit (which IMHO should be very low for mercs, as I do not believe that there was any kind of true "Golden Hello" for mercs that could be equivalent to the cost & time spent to train "regular" factional units, so I would, without any real knowledge, assess the acquisition cost as low / time as immediate for mercs which come with their training/weapons/armor, whilst this cost would reflect training (if any), cost of weapons & armor (if provided by the state) and time would be the time to train a unit for regular units.
    - the possession cost of a unit, IMHO again, should depend on salaries (and all equivalent costs, meaning that, for me, these costs should most probably be higher for a merc unit than for a regular one) and on maintenance costs (ie, food for horses and men, maybe other types, but I struggle to see which). If mercs were supposed to get more benefit from looting, I do not see how the current engine could tackle this, and thus maybe salaries should be even higher.
    This means, in my example, that a merc unit could be cheaper to acquire (and quicker, with 0-time maybe) than a regular unit, but in the long term, more expensive to maintain.
    For irregular units (like levies), obvioulsy, time could be quick to raise and cheap to maintain, but that would mean that such units should be severely handicapped when facing regular or merc units.
    Voilą, just my few cents.
    Yours sincerely dear Pompeius,
    Jean

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    @Jean
    at the moment it seems that we use all DMB-slots. Mercs will be recruited via "buildings", but probably not in the "open field" - if you know what I mean. And here we will offer different kind of mercs = depending on the availability of the buildings.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Dear Pompeius,
    I understand the way recruitment will work (or at least, your explanation of "buildings" vs. "open field"). My point was rather to try to play with acquisitions- and possessions-costs and times. I don't know whether you plan to use this kind of rationale, or another (or just do not want to enter into such rationale).
    Yours sincerely,
    Jean

  10. #10

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    I'm always annoyed when I have to fight a field battle and the AI employes Trebuchets, since that never happened. Maybe in an defensive "dug in" situation catapults were used, but that's probably it. Definite not on the march.

    I understand that it's very hard to get around that, since such AI army is probably on it's way to assault a city.

    So I thought maybe it's possible to get around that by making trebuchet only available through local recruitment and give it no movement ability on the strategic map. That would mean in order to use them to assault a city you need general that can purchase them at the spot of the siege. That would also be kind of historical, since the siege engines were built on the spot of the siege (they should have implemented that in the game).

    I guess it's a great idea, but AI would not understand it and get stuck with it's armies due to immovable trebuchet .
    Last edited by William the Silent; July 24, 2009 at 05:00 AM.

  11. #11
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    trebuchet (or better said Onager) will will be removed from game except the smaller versions (but still expensive) and the Ballista. Furthermore I think about a re-modelling of the carroballistae (the ballista installed on a horse-cart).
    But I agree 100% with you, we should minimize the possibility to meet those machines on battle field.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Dear Pompeius, dear William,
    Please let me say that I totally agree with William's statement. Siege machinery, which were not used during field battles, should, IMHO, only be available during siege battles. As it is the case for ladders, towers, and battering rams. Carro-ballistae may be different, if this is a field battle equipment. But honestly, for the rest, apart from nice "skins", I think it drives the player and more importantly the AI into a totally a-historical use.
    Yours sincerely,
    Jean

  13. #13

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    PS: dear Pompeius, sorry to be annoying (well, I think you know that I can be annoying without wanting to be ;-)), did you understand my point about time and cost of recruitment and cost of possession? I think it would really drive the player and maybe the AI (but I do not know a thing about how it works for recruiting) into more historical armies.
    Yours again,
    Jean

  14. #14
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    I understand your points and we'll try to include so many community inputs as possible. I we come to the point of out internal beta testings then I hope you will join and help us. That's the best way to change "this" and "that".

    To the carro ballistae: This machine as well as the scorpion was indeed used sometimes on battlefield or to block and protect important ways.
    But even this machines will be very expensive in AoD2. That means you will probably rarely find them on battlefield. If you find them on battlefield it is perhaps you own ;-)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    These carro ballistae are powerfull. I employed one with my armies in AoD1. Send them out to harras opproaching enemy. Blew big holes in enemy lines.

    Most powerfull roman unit is Plumbatarii: at unit size HUGE one unit will kill between 200 and 300 per battle. If you employ six units you can destroy 6 to 9 enemy units in a battle. Half the enemy army.
    Last edited by William the Silent; July 24, 2009 at 04:40 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    true, they were powerfull
    the basic-stat of our new coded units is vanilla BI - because I think we find here a very ballanced game. Of course those stats will be changed during the beta tests in many ways.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Another thing with the onager deployment is that you can take a city in one turn. Most of the time the enemy will not have many units in a city and will not be able to defend. Relief force has no chance.

    So I used the onager availability to raid the cities on the North African coast. I could not defeat the western roman field armies, so I put a siege army with onagers on a fleet, took a city destroyed all building and left with my fleet all in the same turn. Then went to the next city.
    Viking tactics.

    So "no onagers" would give badly defended cities a better (realistic) chance. You can even fight of an assault if you can set siege towers or rams on fire with a archer unit. I did that once (you should have seen the faces of all these heavy enemy units, beaten off by a single archer unit ).

    Without onagers that would take at least one turn and would give the heavily walled cities a realistic chance.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    no onagers = more realistic and (more important for me as coder) = more DMB slots for other units ;-)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    Dear Pompeius,
    Just one thing I would (if you allow me) "recommend" to use for AOD2, is the systematical approach regarding units stats. I can't find exactly where such approach was first used (I mean, for which mod) but it tries to take into account "objective" datas, such as armor type and quality, weapons type and quality, rather than "subjective" data, as in Vanilla and many mods. I will look again to try to find where this system was described. Most probably others can indicate this to you.
    Yours sincerely,
    Jean

  20. #20

    Default Re: Suggestions for AoDII

    it would be interesting what kind of mod you mean Jean.
    Also the difference between "objectice" and "subjectice" -stats is not so clear for me.

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