Reappearing factions

[Xerrop]

Some questions about re-emerging factions:

1.) Does every faction reappear? It seems at least so to me
2.) Are there any conditions leading to it?
3.) Can you do anything against it?
4.) And finally how often can a faction reappear?

[Martok]

Some questions about re-emerging factions:

1.) Does every faction reappear? It seems at least so to me
2.) Are there any conditions leading to it?

No, not every faction will necessarily reappear, although it's possible given the right circumstances. In order for a faction to re-emerge, two things have to happen:


1.) It has to have a prince that hadn't yet come of age at the time the faction was wiped out. As long as this uncrowned prince could be "alive" (usually until he'd be around 70), there's a possibility his faction could reappear.

2.) The loyalty rating of one or more provinces formerly under that faction's control goes under 120%.


Here's a hypothetical example to show what I'm talking about:

Let's say that as the English, I destroy the French in 1130. We'll also say that when I wiped them out, they had a Prince Jean who was only 10 years old at the time.

What that means is that starting in 1136 (when Jean comes of age at 16), Jean could appear -- as King Jean -- in *any* formerly French province where the loyalty drops below 120%. This situation would likely remain in place for the next 50-60 years until Jean "dies".

Of course, so long as I make sure all my provinces' loyalty are above 120%, I wouldn't have to worry about Jean ever appearing leading a reborn French faction -- at least not in any former French province that I own. It would still be possible for the French to re-emerge in *another* faction's lands, however, provided that other faction also owned a province once held by the French (say, if the Spanish had taken Tolouse and/or Aquitaine).


Does that make sense?

3.) Can you do anything against it?

As I said, just keep your provinces' loyalty above 120% and you should be fine. (I usually aim for about 150% myself, just to be on the safe side.)

4.) And finally how often can a faction reappear?

It pretty much depends on how many "uncrowned heirs" the faction had at the time it was destroyed. If there's only one heir, then once he dies, the faction is dead for good.

The one exception to this is the Papacy. Given that they don't have to worry about heirs, they can re-emerge at almost any time. Some people have reported that the Pope appears to stop re-emerging after a certain number of "rebirths", but I don't know if we can say whether or not that that's been positively confirmed.

[Xerrop]

Thanks for your anwers Martok.
Very interesting and helpful.

I have always set the taxes as high as possible to have over 100% loyalty - no wonder that nearly all factions reappeared ...

[Martok]

You're welcome.

Yeah, if you're setting taxes so that your provinces' loyalty are only *just* over 100%, that likely is indeed the problem. Either lowering taxes or -- better yet, if you've got some to spare -- placing a few spies in each province should do the trick quite nicely.

[Xerrop]

... or -- better yet, if you've got some to spare -- placing a few spies in each province should do the trick quite nicely.

Yeah - or placing my spies in enemy provinces to cause some troubles there

[Martok]

Yeah - or placing my spies in enemy provinces to cause some troubles there

Indeed.

I myself prefer to tend to my own affairs first, but to each his own. I'm a turtler at heart, so peppering my provinces with spies to boost loyalty (before I bother sending spies to other lands) is pretty much second nature for me.

[caravel]

The papacy are the exception... they will certainly be back...

[Xellos_Moon]

i always reserve the papacy as the last dude standing....then again ive been playingfor 2 weeks

[Martok]

i always reserve the papacy as the last dude standing....then again ive been playingfor 2 weeks

Actually, that's a pretty common policy for a lot of MTW players, including myself. More often than not, I leave the Papacy for last on the rare occasions when I go for the 100% victory.

[Axalon]

Hi guys, it seems that one factor has not been mentioned here so far…

A faction can only reappear in a province/territory that it has controlled at some point (1turn is enough). Thus as long as we ensure control of all such areas to a sufficient level (120% + was it?) the faction in question can not reappear (with the possible exception of the Papacy?). As long as we don’t do that the faction can reappear in other area beyond our borders where lower levels are maintained (rebels for instance). This is how I remember it anyhow. I thought it might be an interesting aspect to know here….

- Cheers

[Xerrop]

As we are talking about faction appearances, what is with Burgundy and the Swiss?
Are there also conditions leading to their emergence?

When I remember correct, Burgundy hasn´t shown up in every campaign.

[Martok]

Hi guys, it seems that one factor has not been mentioned here so far…

A faction can only reappear in a province/territory that it has controlled at some point (1turn is enough). Thus as long as we ensure control of all such areas to a sufficient level (120% + was it?) the faction in question can not reappear (with the possible exception of the Papacy?). As long as we don’t do that the faction can reappear in other area beyond our borders where lower levels are maintained (rebels for instance). This is how I remember it anyhow. I thought it might be an interesting aspect to know here….

- Cheers

Yep, I already covered that in this post (although I maybe could've worded it a little more clearly).

So long as you maintain the loyalty at or above 120% in all your provinces, you shouldn't have to worry about faction re-emergences (with again, the Pope being the exception). Factions can still reappear in provinces *outside* of your control, however -- assuming, of course, that the former/new faction once owned said provinces, and that the loyalty in those provinces is below 120%.

As we are talking about faction appearances, what is with Burgundy and the Swiss?
Are there also conditions leading to their emergence?

When I remember correct, Burgundy hasn´t shown up in every campaign.

My knowledge is admittedly fuzzier regarding the Burgundians and Swiss, partially because I so rarely play MTW during the Late period (which is when those two factions show up). I know that there *are* certain conditions which have to exist before either faction can appear, but I'm not sure what they are.

I believe loyalty in both provinces (Burgundy & Switzerland) has to be below a certain number -- probably 120% again, but I could be wrong about that. I also know that it's more likely for those two factions to appear if their provinces are owned by the "rebels" and not by any other faction, but I don't remember if that's actually a requirement.

Finally, Burgundy seems to be more likely to show up than the Swiss. Why that might be, I'm not certain; but I do know that I've seen far more reports/accounts of the Burgundians emerging than I have of the Swiss putting in an appearance. Make of that what you will.

[caravel]

The Golden Horde, Burgundian and Swiss emergences are hard coded events. The Papal reappearance is also hardcoded.

The Golden Horde appear at their set date (I think it was 1230/1231?) no matter what the provincial loyalty. They usually appear in one or more of the following provinces: Volga Bulgaria, Khazaar, Georgia or Armenia. Because the emergence functions in the same way as a loyalist uprising / faction reappearance, neighbouring rebels may join the Horde when they arrive.

The Swiss emerge in "Switzerland" province during the Late era. They also function as a loyalist uprising but for them to appear loyalty has to be below 120%. It is also possible for neighbouring rebel provinces to join the Swiss, though it's not as common.

The Burgundians emerge in Burgundy in the middle of the Late era - again functioning in much the same way as a loyalist uprising. Again loyalty below 120% in Burgundy is the factor causing the emergence. Neighbouring rebels provinces may also join their cause.

The Papacy reappear in any provinces they have previously held no matter what the loyalty of the province. They usually stay away for about 10 years and then reappear in force. Neighboring rebels may join the Papacy when they reappear (former Papal army rebel stacks will almost definitely rejoin the Papacy because the game tracks the previous faction allegience of rebel stacks - this also applies to any other faction) and Papal army stacks may rebel in any of his previously held provinces.

[Xerrop]

Thanks Martok and Caravel for clearing that.

So when i wanna weaken my enemies I have to send my spies, to cause an Swiss or Burgundian uprising. Interesting that other provinces can also join them, something that has never happened in my campaigns.

[Welder2]

If a faction owned province for at least a year (or received it at the start of the campaign) and died, then there is a chance that it will emerge there again even after many years.

The Papacy will be described as an emerging faction because there is more in common.

I) The reemerge of factions.

In order for the faction to be reemerged, the following conditions must be met.

1. First, a certain value must be reset, which is set when the faction dies. An attempt is made every turn with a 9% chance. Without this, reemerge is impossible.

2. As know, immature heirs do not disappear after the death of the faction, but wait in the wings. To reemerge a faction, it must have a Prince who is > 18 and < 60 years old. This is the future Leaders of the faction. There is a bug here when in the end the Leader may not be the Prince who was chosen (or even the Princess).

3. Province-base. It can be any province whose faction ever owned. This province should currently be owned by Rebels or fall out randomly (this can happen in a province where the loyalty of the population is < 98%, the lower the loyalty, the higher the chance). In this province, the Leader of the faction necessarily appears, others reemerging factions cannot use this province as a base.

4. Cheat ".kidsmode." disables the possibility of reemerging factions (except the Papacy).

Now if the conditions have been met and the faction reemerging.

1. In the province-base, faction troops are being created - the Faction Leader's detachment (+ possibly another detachment) + 2 groups (of 32 detachments in each maximum).

2. The faction receives an amount of money equal to the annual income of the faction with the highest income (not profit), but not less than 20,000.

3. For all provinces where the number of years of ownership is > 0 (except the province-base):

a) The number of years of ownership is set at 24 (maximum).

b) Provinces that belong to the Rebels become the possession of a faction with troops.

c) In provinces not belonging to the Rebels, they may Randomly appear army factions (one group of the maximum 32 detachments) if the loyalty of the population is < 118% (if the cheat ".nuttermode." is activated and the province belongs to the Player then < 177%).

d) Rebel armies appearing on the same turn join to a faction if their cultures coincide (Loyalists cannot join to they don't belong to the Rebels).

Thus, if several factions are reemerged at the same time, their armies can be created in the same provinces, but their Leaders they will never end up together.

II) The emerge of factions.

In many ways, everything is the same for the reemerging factions, but there are differences.

1. 4 factions emerge - the Golden Horde, the Swiss, the Burgundians and the Papacy (FN_GOLDEN_HORDE, FN_SWISS, FN_BURGUNDIAN, FN_PAPIST). Of course, if the name is not declared, then the faction will not be able to emerge.

2. If a faction was entered into the game and died, the specified value must also be restored.

3. The names of the provinces-bases are rigidly fixed here - for the Golden Horde it is the ID_KHAZAR, for the Swiss - ID_SWITZERLAND, for the Burgundians - ID_BURGUNDY, for the Papacy - ID_ROME. The Golden Horde appears in 1230 (more precisely after the completion of this turn), the Burgundians in the interval 1351...1452, the Swiss in the interval 1281...1452. Burgundians and Swiss should never own these provinces, and they must necessarily belong to the Rebels at the moment. The emerge/reemerge of the Papacy is possible randomly if the number of years of possession of Rome is < 19, the fewer years of possession the higher the chance (18 years - 5%, 1 year - 90 %, 0 - 95 %).

4. The Burgundians, the Swiss and the Papacy receive the same amount of money as the reemerging factions, but the Golden Horde has an additional 40,000.

5. The age of the Leader is always 30 years (after the turn it will be 31). He can randomly receive one child or none (the Pope, of course, cannot have children).

6. The number of years of possession of the province-base is set at 10 (except for the Papacy), for the Golden Horde also in Volga Bulgaria, Georgia and Armenia, which allows the Rebels to join, etc.

7. For factions with REL_PAGAN, REL_HERETIC or REL_JEWISH religion, not 2, but 10 groups (of 32 detachments in each maximum) are created in the province-base. This is one of the reasons why the Golden Horde has so many troops.

8. For provinces that the faction has owned for at least 1 year, the same actions are performed as for the reemerging factions. But here the chances of creating armies in provinces that do not belong to the Rebels are much higher, even 200% of the loyalty of the population will not protect against this. Cheat ".nuttermode."nothing changes here. For factions with REL_PAGAN, REL_HERETIC, or REL_JEWISH religion, not 1, but 4 groups (of 32 detachments in each maximum) are created.

The cost of one emerging/reemerging group is usually at least 80 %of the cost of all the troops in the province (including the army in the castle and Crusades and Jihads if they belong to the owner of the province). The higher the average profitability of the provinces of the faction-owner of the province, the higher the amount. If the province belongs to the Player, then a penalty is added to the cost for the "power" of his faction and the difficulty level; if the ".kidsmode." is activated then this cost will be significantly reduced, if ".nuttermode." is activated that can be increased. The size of the group cannot exceed 32 detachments.

If a Player has given control of his faction into the hands of AI (by pressing "'" in debugging mode), then it will be considered an AI faction and then these cheats and penalties will not work (except for the ban on the reemerge of factions).