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Thread: Reappearing factions

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Reappearing factions

    Some questions about re-emerging factions:

    1.) Does every faction reappear? It seems at least so to me
    2.) Are there any conditions leading to it?
    3.) Can you do anything against it?
    4.) And finally how often can a faction reappear?

  2. #2
    Martok's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    Some questions about re-emerging factions:

    1.) Does every faction reappear? It seems at least so to me
    2.) Are there any conditions leading to it?
    No, not every faction will necessarily reappear, although it's possible given the right circumstances. In order for a faction to re-emerge, two things have to happen:


    1.) It has to have a prince that hadn't yet come of age at the time the faction was wiped out. As long as this uncrowned prince could be "alive" (usually until he'd be around 70), there's a possibility his faction could reappear.

    2.) The loyalty rating of one or more provinces formerly under that faction's control goes under 120%.


    Here's a hypothetical example to show what I'm talking about:

    Let's say that as the English, I destroy the French in 1130. We'll also say that when I wiped them out, they had a Prince Jean who was only 10 years old at the time.

    What that means is that starting in 1136 (when Jean comes of age at 16), Jean could appear -- as King Jean -- in *any* formerly French province where the loyalty drops below 120%. This situation would likely remain in place for the next 50-60 years until Jean "dies".

    Of course, so long as I make sure all my provinces' loyalty are above 120%, I wouldn't have to worry about Jean ever appearing leading a reborn French faction -- at least not in any former French province that I own. It would still be possible for the French to re-emerge in *another* faction's lands, however, provided that other faction also owned a province once held by the French (say, if the Spanish had taken Tolouse and/or Aquitaine).


    Does that make sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    3.) Can you do anything against it?
    As I said, just keep your provinces' loyalty above 120% and you should be fine. (I usually aim for about 150% myself, just to be on the safe side.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    4.) And finally how often can a faction reappear?
    It pretty much depends on how many "uncrowned heirs" the faction had at the time it was destroyed. If there's only one heir, then once he dies, the faction is dead for good.

    The one exception to this is the Papacy. Given that they don't have to worry about heirs, they can re-emerge at almost any time. Some people have reported that the Pope appears to stop re-emerging after a certain number of "rebirths", but I don't know if we can say whether or not that that's been positively confirmed.
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." - Pascal

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Thanks for your anwers Martok.
    Very interesting and helpful.

    I have always set the taxes as high as possible to have over 100% loyalty - no wonder that nearly all factions reappeared ...

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    Martok's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    You're welcome.

    Yeah, if you're setting taxes so that your provinces' loyalty are only *just* over 100%, that likely is indeed the problem. Either lowering taxes or -- better yet, if you've got some to spare -- placing a few spies in each province should do the trick quite nicely.
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." - Pascal

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok View Post
    ... or -- better yet, if you've got some to spare -- placing a few spies in each province should do the trick quite nicely.
    Yeah - or placing my spies in enemy provinces to cause some troubles there

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    Martok's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    Yeah - or placing my spies in enemy provinces to cause some troubles there
    Indeed.

    I myself prefer to tend to my own affairs first, but to each his own. I'm a turtler at heart, so peppering my provinces with spies to boost loyalty (before I bother sending spies to other lands) is pretty much second nature for me.
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." - Pascal

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    Murakawa
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Can I just check that this is the case for the Papal lands - if loyalty doesn't fall below 120% the Papacy won't come back?

    I'd thought the Papacy would be harder to squish than that - which would make the Holy Roman Empire Glorious Achievements very challenging.

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    Shashu
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    The papacy are the exception... they will certainly be back...

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    Xellos_Moon's Avatar Ishiyumi no shashu
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    i always reserve the papacy as the last dude standing....then again ive been playingfor 2 weeks

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    Martok's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xellos_Moon View Post
    i always reserve the papacy as the last dude standing....then again ive been playingfor 2 weeks
    Actually, that's a pretty common policy for a lot of MTW players, including myself. More often than not, I leave the Papacy for last on the rare occasions when I go for the 100% victory.
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." - Pascal

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    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it...
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Hi guys, it seems that one factor has not been mentioned here so far…

    A faction can only reappear in a province/territory that it has controlled at some point (1turn is enough). Thus as long as we ensure control of all such areas to a sufficient level (120% + was it?) the faction in question can not reappear (with the possible exception of the Papacy?). As long as we don’t do that the faction can reappear in other area beyond our borders where lower levels are maintained (rebels for instance). This is how I remember it anyhow. I thought it might be an interesting aspect to know here….

    - Cheers

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    As we are talking about faction appearances, what is with Burgundy and the Swiss?
    Are there also conditions leading to their emergence?

    When I remember correct, Burgundy hasn´t shown up in every campaign.
    Last edited by Xerrop; July 27, 2009 at 07:54 AM.

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    Martok's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Hi guys, it seems that one factor has not been mentioned here so far…

    A faction can only reappear in a province/territory that it has controlled at some point (1turn is enough). Thus as long as we ensure control of all such areas to a sufficient level (120% + was it?) the faction in question can not reappear (with the possible exception of the Papacy?). As long as we don’t do that the faction can reappear in other area beyond our borders where lower levels are maintained (rebels for instance). This is how I remember it anyhow. I thought it might be an interesting aspect to know here….

    - Cheers
    Yep, I already covered that in this post (although I maybe could've worded it a little more clearly).

    So long as you maintain the loyalty at or above 120% in all your provinces, you shouldn't have to worry about faction re-emergences (with again, the Pope being the exception). Factions can still reappear in provinces *outside* of your control, however -- assuming, of course, that the former/new faction once owned said provinces, and that the loyalty in those provinces is below 120%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    As we are talking about faction appearances, what is with Burgundy and the Swiss?
    Are there also conditions leading to their emergence?

    When I remember correct, Burgundy hasn´t shown up in every campaign.
    My knowledge is admittedly fuzzier regarding the Burgundians and Swiss, partially because I so rarely play MTW during the Late period (which is when those two factions show up). I know that there *are* certain conditions which have to exist before either faction can appear, but I'm not sure what they are.

    I believe loyalty in both provinces (Burgundy & Switzerland) has to be below a certain number -- probably 120% again, but I could be wrong about that. I also know that it's more likely for those two factions to appear if their provinces are owned by the "rebels" and not by any other faction, but I don't remember if that's actually a requirement.

    Finally, Burgundy seems to be more likely to show up than the Swiss. Why that might be, I'm not certain; but I do know that I've seen far more reports/accounts of the Burgundians emerging than I have of the Swiss putting in an appearance. Make of that what you will.
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." - Pascal

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    Shashu
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    The Golden Horde, Burgundian and Swiss emergences are hard coded events. The Papal reappearance is also hardcoded.

    The Golden Horde appear at their set date (I think it was 1230/1231?) no matter what the provincial loyalty. They usually appear in one or more of the following provinces: Volga Bulgaria, Khazaar, Georgia or Armenia. Because the emergence functions in the same way as a loyalist uprising / faction reappearance, neighbouring rebels may join the Horde when they arrive.

    The Swiss emerge in "Switzerland" province during the Late era. They also function as a loyalist uprising but for them to appear loyalty has to be below 120%. It is also possible for neighbouring rebel provinces to join the Swiss, though it's not as common.

    The Burgundians emerge in Burgundy in the middle of the Late era - again functioning in much the same way as a loyalist uprising. Again loyalty below 120% in Burgundy is the factor causing the emergence. Neighbouring rebels provinces may also join their cause.

    The Papacy reappear in any provinces they have previously held no matter what the loyalty of the province. They usually stay away for about 10 years and then reappear in force. Neighboring rebels may join the Papacy when they reappear (former Papal army rebel stacks will almost definitely rejoin the Papacy because the game tracks the previous faction allegience of rebel stacks - this also applies to any other faction) and Papal army stacks may rebel in any of his previously held provinces.

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Thanks Martok and Caravel for clearing that.

    So when i wanna weaken my enemies I have to send my spies, to cause an Swiss or Burgundian uprising. Interesting that other provinces can also join them, something that has never happened in my campaigns.

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    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it...
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok View Post
    Yep, I already covered that in this post (although I maybe could've worded it a little more clearly).
    Well, what do you know, there we go....

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Noticed yesterday in my MTW XL3.0 campaign what can happen by allowing factions to reappear everywhere, as long as they had owned any province for only one turn:

    The english´s king residence is now Scotland, while the Scots rule over the three former english provinces:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Xerrop; August 03, 2009 at 04:08 AM.

  18. #18
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    The 120% is a good target to follow. The point at which a re-emergence can occur is <100% (they can only occur in a province where a rebellion is possible). However, once one province meets this requirement, any other provinces with <120% that the faction previously owned can also join in (they just can't initiate the re-emergence).

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    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Just a thought ... for an example, I'll use Cordoba. Starts under the Almohads, and is later conquered by the Spanish. If I then destroyed them both and allowed Cordoba to rebel, who would re-emerge?

    If both emerged, it could make for an interesting and large three-way battle.

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    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Reappearing factions

    Nevermind ... something similar happened in another game. Tripoli had been owned by first Egypt and then Turkey, and lastly me. It rebelled but only the Turkish got a re-emergence army.

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