1331 Campaign (Renaissance)

[uanime5]

This thread is for discussion and feedback for the 1331 campaign (formerly the 1346 campaign).



The failure of the Crusades and the loss of the Holy Lands has been a bitter blow to many Christians. However a new Crusade had begun in Central Europe to convert the Lithuanian Pagans to Christianity. Though some have joined this Crusade many are preparing to fight against what they consider to be greater enemeies. To the East the Golden Horde has begun expanding to the Kingdoms of Poland and Hungary, while in the South the Ottoman Empire is continuing to expand into Roman lands. However there is an even greater threat looming that may destroy the whole world.

Technology

At the start of this mod Heavy Mail and Lamellar are the strongest armour available to the player, though most of the infantry available wield spears there are more units available that use swords. Cannons are available at the start of this mod, with plate armour and guns becoming available later.

Factions

Britain
Kingdom of England
Kingdom of Scotland

Western Europe
Kingdom of France
Holy Roman Empire

Iberia
Kingdom of Castile
Kingdom of Aragon
Kingdom of Portugal

Scandinavia
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Norway
Kingdom of Sweden

Italy
Most Serene Republic of Venice
Papal States
Republic of Genoa

Eastern Europe
Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Poland
Bulgarian Tzardom
Kingdom of Serbia
Kingdom of Lithuania
Teutonic Order

Greek
Eastern Roman Empire

Russia
Grand Duchy of Vladimir
Novgorod Republic

Africa
Bahri dynasty
Nasrid dynasty
Mali Empire

Near East
Ottoman Empire

India
Tughlaq Dynasty

East Asia / Persia
Golden Horde
Il Khanate
Chagatai Khanate

[Hrobatos]

about Serbia in 1346 Stefan Uros Dusan IV claimed himself as Tsar(emperor) of Serbs, Greeks(Romans) and Bulgars, he was a king before that..also i found one map but from 1350 i think Serbia was the same in size and in 1346 when campaign starts
http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgur...L5OG_Aanm_j_AQ

[uanime5]

Thanks for finding this map Hrobatos it's very informative. I can't read the key but I'm guessing that

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Serbia = Pink
Bosnia = Red
Hungary = Green
Bulgaria = Yellow
Byzantine Empire = Purple
Wallachia = brown
Venice = small brown

County palatine of Cephalonia and Zakynthos= small yellow
Duchy of Athens = light brown

Do you know what the orange one is? Also at the bottom the 'Axaja' region is the same colour as Serbia. Was this area under Serbian control or are the colours just similar?

EDIT: found out it's the Principality of Achaea. It also seems that the Byzantine Empire controlled very little after the 4th Crusade, as it was split into many smaller states.

[Hrobatos]

i dont know how to read it either, i am croat we write latin, but i can use the serbians pages so check this

1. А, а - A, a
2. Б, б - B, b
3. В, в - V, v
4. Г, г - G, g
5. Д, д - D, d
6. Ђ, ђ - Đ, đ (as J in Jaime or Jeep )
7. Е, е - E, e
8. Ж, ж - Ž, ž
9. З, з - Z, z
10. И, и - I, i
11. Ј, ј - J, j
12. К, к - K, k
13. Л, л - L, l
14. Љ, љ - Lj, lj
15. М, м - M, m
16. Н, н - N, n
17. Њ, њ - Nj, nj( nj in russian njet as no)
18. О, о - O, o
19. П, п - P, p
20. Р, р - R, r
21. С, с - S, s
22. Т, т - T, t
23. Ћ, ћ - Ć, ć( also ch)
24. У, у - U, u
25. Ф, ф - F, f
26. Х, х - H, h
27. Ц, ц - C, c
28. Ч, ч - Č, č( ch)
29. Џ, џ - Dž, dž(d in draw)
30. Ш, ш - Š,š(sch)

AXAJA is not serbia i think either Byzantines or venice but i dont know,
and for other it is Egeja as Egean islands only with no islands in the name, i think some small byzantin state
as on the page it says that byzantines were in civil war and serbs used that to expand , perhaps Egeja and Axaja were under protection of Venice so serbs didnt attack them but i dont know even do i can check, how will you make byzantines in thaht period?one state?rebels? perhaps historicly most accurate way would be to make one province as Byzantines while rest of their provinces rebels so if player wants to be a hero he can try to save Empire...
also at the time bosnia was Kingdom and quite powerfull, it was golden age of Bosnian Kingdom, the even were in war with Serbs and they won that war, also Dubrovnik(Ragusa) was Republic at the time city-state under protection from Spain and with trade fleet of more than 300 big ships make it rebel if not a faction...

[uanime5]

I don't have a Ragusa province on this map so I can't make it rebel.

As Bosnia wasn't independent until after Tzar Dušan's death in 1355 when the Serbian Empire collapsed and I don't have any more factions available I plan to make Bosnia part of Serbia.

Serbia will be large and the Byzantine Empire will only have Constantinople.

[Hrobatos]

this teritory south of bulgaria should be byzantin not serbian, check the map i provided again

[uanime5]

There's only one province under Bulgaria so the map will either look like the one above or this:

[Hrobatos]

i didnt know that, then its ok

[Bosnian_King]

I don't have a Ragusa province on this map so I can't make it rebel.

As Bosnia wasn't independent until after Tzar Dušan's death in 1355 when the Serbian Empire collapsed and I don't have any more factions available I plan to make Bosnia part of Serbia.

Serbia will be large and the Byzantine Empire will only have Constantinople.

Bosnia was independent from 1189. Bosnia was a vazal state till 1189. Why are you talking about 1355? Bosnia as a banate was independent. All Bosnian rulers from 1189-1463 call themeslves:"rulers by gods will"

In the 13. century:

I Bosnian ban Ninoslav, ruler of many bosnian countries,by gods will
I Bosnian ban Stijepan Kotroman, ruler of many bosnian coutries, by gods will
I ban Prijezda ruler of many bosnian countries by gods will
I ban Sebislav...........
I ban Kulin

etc. etc.

It is a big insultion to say that Bosnia was not independent til 1355. Even the biggest Serbian nationalists who are in the Hague tribunal today did not say that! There is no Bosniab, Serbian, Croatian ot western historian who did say that Bosnia became independent so late. The all agree more or less that Bosnia was independent from ban Kulin and further; so from 1189. and further.

[uanime5]

I'm not a historian and my research mainly comes from Wikipedia. This was what was written in the history of Zeta.

After Tzar Dušan's death in 1355, the Serbian state Kingdom started to crumble and its holdings were divided among Prince (Knjaz) Lazar Hrebeljanović, the short-lived (1353-1391) Bosnian state of Ban Tvrtko I Kotromanić, and a semi-independent chiefdom of Zeta under the House of Balšić, whose founder Balša I came to power in 1356.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indepen...pality_of_Zeta


I assumed that the "the short-lived (1353-1391) Bosnian state" meant that the Bosnian state only existed between 1353 and 1391. What was it was before 1353 and after 1391?

[Bosnian_King]

I'm not a historian and my research mainly comes from Wikipedia. This was what was written in the history of Zeta.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indepen...pality_of_Zeta


I assumed that the "the short-lived (1353-1391) Bosnian state" meant that the Bosnian state only existed between 1353 and 1391. What was it was before 1353 and after 1391?

No no no!

1353-1391 was the period of reign of Tvrtko I. He was a child when he came in power. In the first years of his rule he shared the power with his mother and brother.

After Tvrtko I came Tvrtko II, king Ostoja,king Ostojic, king Tomas, king Tomasevic, queen Marija Gruba. The last Bosnian queen died in Rome as a refugee, because Bosnia was conquered by Turks. Her portret if visible in my avartar. This was queen "Katarina Kosaca Kotromanic". Still today every year bosnians have a special day for this queen at the place kraljeva sutjeska in central bosnia and a special church ceremony. Capital of Bosnia fellt in the hands of the Turks in 1463. But till 1531 there existed a small Bosnian kingdom, a protectorate recognised by the Turks and Hungary and a buffer zone between the Turks and Hungarians.

This what you read at wikipedia is correct but you did not understand it well. When the Serbian kingdom began to collapese, the Bosnian ban Tvrtko took over some serbain territories. That's what this wikipedia wants to say. Tvrtko was one of the many bosnian rulers. Before Tvrtko there were like 10-20 bosnian rulers. Some of them were independen some of them were not. The rulers after ban Kulin were independent of Hungary and the rulers before Kulin were not.

So what Tvrtko did, he took over Serbian territory and he later also crowned himself king of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Primorje. Off course Tvrtko and all the kings after him calls his land "Bosnian kingdom". He uses his blood relations with the Serbian royal house of Nemanjic to take over a small part of the "Serbian lands". He used the chaos and the collapse of the serbian kingdom, not only in the way to gain more territory, but also to become a more respected king.

Why was he not a respected king before then? Because the bosnian church crowned the Tvrtko with the "Bosnian crown", according to Dubravko Lovrenovic before 1366. But the Bosnian church was treated as a less or more heretic church by the pope. So the crown which the Bosnian church put on the head of Tvrtko I was not really international recognised. Tvrtko I knew that.

So he saw his chance to "marry" his crown with the crown of Nemanjic in 1377. This was a special political construction and it was called "sucubi vijenac". It was a ceremony in which Tvrtko crowned himself with two crowns. As he self said:"One crown concerns the land of Bosnia and my bosnian forefathers and the other crown concerns the land of serbia and my serbian forefathers." This was the way how Tvrtko became a international recognised king.

But there is absolutely not one Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian historian, or any other historian on this world; who would say that Bosnia was a vazal state before 1355. Bosnia was a banate; with rulers whi all ruled of "the bosnian countries by god's will" from 1189-1463. It was a banate under suspicion of heresy and a banate which was under great pressure from Serbia, who attacked Bosnia around 1300. and Hungary which attacked Bosnia 40 times and one time they even conquered the capital Bobovac! But absolutely not a vazal in this period.

[sportsman81]

I'm not a historian and my research mainly comes from Wikipedia. This was what was written in the history of Zeta.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indepen...pality_of_Zeta


I assumed that the "the short-lived (1353-1391) Bosnian state" meant that the Bosnian state only existed between 1353 and 1391. What was it was before 1353 and after 1391?

That "the short lived (1353-1391)" is a period of Tvrtko I Kotromanic' reign not Bosnian statehood period.
Tvrtko I began his ruling in Bosnia in 1353 as a Ban and in 1377 as a King (first Bosnian King) untill he died in 1391. He was succeeded by Stjepan Dabisa, next Bosnian King. And till the Ottomans conquered Bosnia in 1463, there were several more Kings/Queens of Bosnia besides Tvrtko I (Kotromanic dinasty: King Stjepan Dabisa, Queen Jelena Gruba, King Stjepan Ostoja, King Stjepan Ostojic, King Stjepan Tvrtko II, King Stjepan Tomas, Queen Katarina Kosaca, King Stjepan Tomasevic etc.).

I hope this will help: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOSNIA.htm
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/yugoslav.htm
http://www.bosniafacts.info/web/The_Medieval_Bosnia.php

This source that you found on Wikipedia is written by Serb author. You must know that Serb historyography wants to proclaim Bosnia and Zeta/Duklja as "medieval Serbian states", not just medieval, but todays. That's main reason we had recent wars in Balkan. These authors consider Bosnia and Zeta(Duklja) "medieval Serbian states", what is not truth. Although, Zeta, in that time, was under selfcalled Tzar Dushan's state, but it does not make Zeta a Serbian state if it's under Serbian command in that time (Bosnia was under Hungary in many periods but it was not Hungarian state if you copy me). While Bosnia was not under Dushan' state during his reign, it was independent before and during Dushan as Banate and after Dushan as Banate and Kingdom.

You cannot make this mod by researching only Wikipedia where everyone can write what ever he feals like. How can that be reliable source. It's just not serious and historcally correct research.

Before 1353, Bosnia was also totally independent as Banate of Bosnia (take a look at Tsardoms mod) with Ban Stjepan II Kotromanic (Kotromanic: Bosnian noble family). From 950 to 1180 Bosnia was semi-independent (usually Hungarian/Byzantine vassal) and from 1180 to 1463 totally independent (1180-1377 as Banate, after 1377 till 1463 as Kingdom). I advise you to read something neutral, that was not written in Wikipedia or by any Balkan historian. Try, for the beginning to read a book from British historian Noel Malcolm: "Bosnia-A Short History" and tell me if I am wrong.

[Bosnian_King]

That "the short lived (1353-1391)" is a period of Tvrtko I Kotromanic' reign not Bosnian statehood period.
Tvrtko I began his ruling in Bosnia in 1353 as a Ban and in 1377 as a King (first Bosnian King) untill he died in 1391. He was inherited by Stjepan Dabisa, next Bosnian King. And till the Ottomans conquered Bosnia in 1463, there were several more Kings/Queens of Bosnia besides Tvrtko I (Kotromanic dinasty: King Stjepan Dabisa, Queen Jelena Gruba, King Stjepan Ostoja, King Stjepan Ostojic, King Stjepan Tvrtko II, King Stjepan Tomas, Queen Katarina Kosaca, King Stjepan Tomasevic etc.).

This source that you found on Wikipedia is written by Serb author. You must know that Serb historyography wants to proclaim Bosnia and Zeta/Duklja as "medieval Serbian states", not just medieval, but todays. That's main reason we had recent wars in Balkan. These authors consider Bosnia and Zeta(Duklja) "medieval Serbian states", what is not truth. Although, Zeta, in that time, was under selfcalled Tzar Dushan's state, but it does not make Zeta a Serbian state if it's under Serbian command in that time (Bosnia was under Hungary in many periods but it was not Hungarian state if you copy me). While Bosnia was not under Dushan' state during his reign, it was independent before and during Dushan as Banate and after Dushan as Banate and Kingdom.

You cannot make this mod by researching only Wikipedia where everyone can write what ever he feals like. How can that be reliable source. It's just not serious and historcally correct research.

Before 1353, Bosnia was also totally independent as Banate of Bosnia (take a look at Tsardoms mod) with Ban Stjepan II Kotromanic (Kotromanic: Bosnian noble family). From 950 to 1180 Bosnia was semi-independent (usually Hungarian/Byzantine vassal) and from 1180 to 1463 totally independent (1180-1377 as Banate, after 1377 till 1463 as Kingdom). I advise you to read something neutral, that was not written in Wikipedia or by any Balkan historian. Try, for the beginning to read a book from British historian Noel Malcolm: "Bosnia-A Short History" and tell me if I am wrong.

But also the most nationalistic serb historians like Cirkovic did not write such things that Bosnia was not independent before 1353. This is just a mistake of the writer of wikipedia.

You are making a mistake! Bosnia was a kingdom before 1377. Read books of some Croatian profesoors like Dubravko Lovrenovic:"The holy Bosnian crown and the holy Hungarian crown." He states that Bosnia was, without doubt a kingdom before 1377.; but that in 1377. the bosnian king crowned himself again with a "sugubim vijencem" with which he connected the "bosnian crown" with the "serbian crown" to get recognition. This we know a very very long time and German historians but also Croatian historians did point on this detail in the past. Dubravko Lovrenovic was the first historian who concentrated only on this part of bosnian medieval period and his book is respected and 750 pages long.

So the Bosnian kings 4 times are mentioning a "holy bosnian crown" = "sacra corona bosnesis". One time Tvrtko himself in a latin letter to Dubrovnik, one time Ostoja, Tomas and another king also. This is the crown with the lillies which we can se at coins from medieval bosnia but also at a lot of other things. This crown was, according to Lovrenovic, put on the head of Tvrtko I somwhere between 1360- 1377.

[sportsman81]

Yes, Tvrtko was crowned probably in 1371 in Bosnia as Bosnian King, but officially he was crowned in 1377 as a King of both, Bosnia and Serbia, when he conquered Serb lands (also conquered later parts of Croatia and Dalmatia and was crowned as a King of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and Dalmatia) , so that Pope could proclaim him as a King, 'cause that was one of the ways he could get recognition from Pope as King (he needed to conquer some parts of neighbouring lands to get recognition from Pope to be a King). In that time, only Pope or Holy-Roman Emperor could give recognition for newly established King and Kingdom. Serb historians cannot denie the fact that Bosnia was independent, but, nevertheless, they call Bosnia "Serb land" despite that Bosnia was independent and had own people,land, king, crown,army, culture, tradition and religion (catholic and krstjani/manihejs).

Btw, Dubravko Lovrenovic is a Bosnian historian!

[Bosnian_King]

Yes, Tvrtko was crowned probably in 1371 in Bosnia as Bosnian King, but officially he was crowned in 1377 as a King of both, Bosnia and Serbia, when he conquered Serb lands (also conquered later parts of Croatia and Dalmatia and was crowned as a King of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and Dalmatia) , so that Pope could proclaim him as a King, 'cause that was one of the ways he could get recognition from Pope as King (he needed to conquer some parts of neighbouring lands to get recognition from Pope to be a King). Serb historians cannot denie the fact that Bosnia was independent, but, nevertheless, they call Bosnia "Serb land" despite that Bosnia was independent and had own people,land, king, crown,army, culture, tradition and religion (catholic and krstjani/manihejs).

Btw, Dubravko Lovrenovic is a Bosnian historian!

Serbs do also call Croatia a serb land and they called Slovenian a serb dialect. That's because they want to use their refugees in Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia, who escaped to those countries after the fall of kosovo or who were transported to there by turks; to create a great serbia.

[sportsman81]

Yes, some of them "claim" even that!

[Ban_Stjepan]

@uanime5

Don t use Wikipedia, because you found there many incorrect historical informations.

[Ban_Stjepan]

Just one more important historical fact: Serbian tsar Dusan invade Bosnia between 1349-1351, during Stjepan II Kotromanic. Stjepan II took of land of Travunia from tsar Dusan, and defeated Dusan s army during siege of Bosnian capitol Bobovac and turn Serbian invaders back to Serbia.

[uanime5]

As I don't have any spare factions I can't include a Bosnian faction, so should I made Bosnia a rebel province or part of another faction?

[sportsman81]

How about a chooseable faction during installation?
Is that possible in your mod?
In Patria Libera mod, they have this option.

Btw, if this can help, this is Tsardoms folder with a lot of infos on Bosnia and Balkan factions:

Attachment 70487

Tsardoms map with provinces:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: