Chaos X infinity = order

[Amorphos]

Chaos X infinity = order

I asked myself a question; why isn’t there just nothing or chaos?

If nothing there would be an infinity of it which would be more than nothing + logically nothingness cannot exist as there is something.
What’s more interesting is why is there is not ‘chaos’ only? somehow there was the big bang which take an immense intellect prior to the inception of both existence and manifest intellect. Yet before we even begin to answer what that was we much first ask;

why not chaos…

Before me there is a table upon which are three glasses, I move them around randomly and there is no order. However if I stop or if I take any amount of that simple ‘chaos’ then I multiply it by infinity, then it becomes cyclic and I have order.

Equally if I keep moving them around eventually given an infinite amount of moves, then that chaos of movement would reach every single place on the table. Again we have an infinity which we can then multiply by infinity and we have order, this simply because order is repetition of chaos or chunks of chaos.

So are the age old tales of creation being born of chaos right, or is it somehow all figured out before anything happens? I cannot imagine that you ever have chaos as manifest, somehow it is sub-existential ~ I don’t mean non-existent in the normal context, but that some things lie beneath, like some kinds of potentiality for example.

I would think that everything existence is about, derives from this substrata of reality.

[Hippolord]

why not chaos…

(Don't Worry i read your whole post)

Because of infinity...You kinda answered your own question. The infinity of the mind of all beings, and because of he infinite potential of the universe. There is not chaos, because we are not free, The universe and all things physical are not free, and thought is not free. This is because of the bounds of the finite universe, the only thing that is trully free is the mind, whoms potential projected unto the universe is the only the only thing that is infinite. Thusly the Mind of Concioues being project Chaos, but sadly it is inevitably stopped by the bounds of the finite universe.

Kinda Scratchy explanation...I got alot water in my head (Been swimming all day)

[Playfishpaste]

Firstly, I am confused, because there is no such thing as order in the real physical world. Everything has a level of entropy.

Second, moving all of the glasses to every spot on the table doesn't make the next movement non-random. Or are you attempting to say that since you are moving the glasses forever they are no longer chaotic? Explain why.

If I have sex an infinite number of times, the sex will still be chaotic.

[Hippolord]

Firstly, I am confused, because there is no such thing as order in the real physical world. Everything has a level of entropy.

I would actually say quite the opposite, that there is no Chaos (Or very little) in the Physical world, and that the chaos is within the mind, and many things non-physical. It is within the physical world, that we are bound, there are laws, and chains, and boundaries, which physical things cannot break or cross. The physical world, is the world of order, and of laws. Thusly in the physical world in it's current state, infinity is impossible.

Nay, it is within the mind that we become free, were chaos reigns. It is within the mind that you know no bounds, and no chains exsist lest you make them yourself, no boundaries are set, lest you set them. Thusly within the Physical world, there is order, and lack of freedom. Within the mind there is no order, and you are free.

[Copperknickers II]

Chaos X infinity = order

I asked myself a question; why isn’t there just nothing or chaos?

Because there must be something if there is chaos, therefore there cannot be nothing? To take the mathematical approach -


if chaos X infinity = order
then
infinity/order = chaos

That makes perfect sense to me - if you put order (eg the laws of physics) into infinity (ie the universe) you get the chaotic and inscrutable thing we call the physical world.

[Juvenal]

Chaos X infinity = order

I think you need to define your terms. Chaos describes a state lacking order or predictability. Infinity is a pseudo-number (a limit treated as if it were a number). Order is a property of collections of objects.

Multiplying by infinity is not meaningful in the physical universe owing to a shortage of available infinity.

Multiplying Chaos by a number has no meaning that I can determine.

You might as well say Pink / Mysticism = Pebbledash

I asked myself a question; why isn’t there just nothing or chaos?

If nothing there would be an infinity of it which would be more than nothing + logically nothingness cannot exist as there is something.

What is an infinity of nothing?

Look, Infinity and Chaos are concepts, you can't have a bucket of Infinity or a gross of Chaos. The Universe consists of matter, energy and fields (and maybe other things we don't understand yet), but it isn't made of concepts.

What’s more interesting is why is there is not ‘chaos’ only? somehow there was the big bang which take an immense intellect prior to the inception of both existence and manifest intellect. Yet before we even begin to answer what that was we much first ask;

why not chaos…

Easy, the Anthropic Principle. In order to ask the question, I must exist, I do exist, therefore 'not chaos'. QED.

Before me there is a table upon which are three glasses, I move them around randomly and there is no order. However if I stop or if I take any amount of that simple ‘chaos’ then I multiply it by infinity, then it becomes cyclic and I have order.

Equally if I keep moving them around eventually given an infinite amount of moves, then that chaos of movement would reach every single place on the table. Again we have an infinity which we can then multiply by infinity and we have order, this simply because order is repetition of chaos or chunks of chaos.

You probably can't move a glass randomly, the best you can achieve is not knowing why you made the decision. I suppose you might create a glass-moving apparatus driven by nuclear beta-decay or somesuch, but you would never know whether it was truly random, because 'random' is a concept, we don't know if it really exists.

You can't move a glass an infinite number of times in a finite amount of time.

There is no reason why random moves (supposing that you could achieve randomness) should become cyclic, because there are an infinite number of possible sequences of an infinite number of moves!

So are the age old tales of creation being born of chaos right, or is it somehow all figured out before anything happens? I cannot imagine that you ever have chaos as manifest, somehow it is sub-existential ~ I don’t mean non-existent in the normal context, but that some things lie beneath, like some kinds of potentiality for example.

I would think that everything existence is about, derives from this substrata of reality.

Before asserting the basis for everything existence is about, you need an argument that points strongly towards that basis being valid. After all, it is quite an important conclusion, the equivalent of the 'Theory of Everything' that thousands of physicists (and theologians) around the world are striving to find.

[Tankbuster]

The thing is, I object to using my logical mind when talking about things that are so mysterious like the Big Bang, let alone what preceded the Big Bang. Our primate brain is not suited to deal with these questions.
The answer to your questions will probably involve a lot of quantum physics (or something that preceded quantum physics), and we all know trying to use logic to understand quantum physics is futile. Anyone who logically or intuitively understands quantum non-locality, please step forward

I would actually say quite the opposite, that there is no Chaos (Or very little) in the Physical world, and that the chaos is within the mind, and many things non-physical. It is within the physical world, that we are bound, there are laws, and chains, and boundaries, which physical things cannot break or cross. The physical world, is the world of order, and of laws. Thusly in the physical world in it's current state, infinity is impossible.

Nay, it is within the mind that we become free, were chaos reigns. It is within the mind that you know no bounds, and no chains exsist lest you make them yourself, no boundaries are set, lest you set them. Thusly within the Physical world, there is order, and lack of freedom. Within the mind there is no order, and you are free.

You said it yourself: the physical world binds us with natural laws. One of these laws happens to be the ones relating to thermodynamics: particles want to go to the most disorganised and chaotic states (high entropy).

[Ummon]

You said it yourself: the physical world binds us with natural laws. One of these laws happens to be the ones relating to thermodynamics: particles want to go to the most disorganised and chaotic states (high entropy).

Particles want to go is really cute for a science fan. And it shows many important things one should spend time thinking about.

But really, if anything, particles "want to go" (à la Prigogine) towards order (local reductions of entropy), in some circumstances. That is I suspect the order Quetz has in mind.

[Hippolord]

You said it yourself: the physical world binds us with natural laws. One of these laws happens to be the ones relating to thermodynamics: particles want to go to the most disorganised and chaotic states (high entropy).

And since it is a law, even if it is a law of chaos, then it is orderly.

Orederd Chaos, something that has been ordained to be chaotic, and thusly is not trully chaotic.

[Tankbuster]

And since it is a law, even if it is a law of chaos, then it is orderly.

Orederd Chaos, something that has been ordained to be chaotic, and thusly is not trully chaotic.

You're using law in the judicial sense of the word rather than the scientific one.
Every system tends to go to a state of the lowest possible entropy; this is not "ordered chaos", it's simply an inherent tendency in matter.

[Amorphos]

because of the infinite potential of the universe. There is not chaos

My thinking is that before we arrive at any element of order one would think the most likely nature of reality would be either chaos or nothing. The only thing that doesn’t make sense is that there is a universe, hence the need to try and understand how it happened.

_______________________

Firstly, I am confused, because there is no such thing as order in the real physical world. Everything has a level of entropy.

The real world I would say is somewhere betwixt the two. There is no absolute order and no absolute chaos but there is some ‘order‘, luckily there is also chaos, that there isn’t eternal repetition.

Second, moving all of the glasses to every spot on the table doesn't make the next movement non-random. Or are you attempting to say that since you are moving the glasses forever they are no longer chaotic? Explain why.

There is a finite amount of movement of the glasses, yet as we both know infinite sets were invented for a reason, thus there is infinite amount of change possible ~ at least on the quantum scale. However if we multiply the movement by infinity then given the holistic finite limit of movement possible [I.e. on the macroscopic scale] for the objects, the infinite difference is negated by the set of all sets.

If we collect together all the ‘chaos groups’ such as this one exemplified by the movement of glasses [a finite set], then add that they all interact in some way, then I feel that the overall effect is a kind of order blended with a kind of chaos. We may imagine that where one chaos group interacts with another, this creates a subtle point by which the cyclicity may be seen.

Perhaps this can be visualised as groups of spaghetti tying each other in knots. I am not sure how to explain it as this is an exploration thread, so all suggestions welcome!

________________________

That makes perfect sense to me - if you put order (eg the laws of physics) into infinity (ie the universe) you get the chaotic and inscrutable thing we call the physical world

Ha, exactly. Perhaps instead of considering the equation alone we may consider all the elements somehow at work in the background, though I cannot even imagine how this occurs on a real level. I suppose we can imagine that with infinity there is timelessness and maybe some kind of intellect [in effect] etc, so the whole thing is automatically resolved in an instant yet is eternally invoked as the continuum. it’s a kinda ‘is/isn’t’ thing, where it is never the case that it specifically is or isn’t.

_________________________

Infinity is a pseudo-number

Perhaps you need to define the 'philosophical space' or reality map more deeply, infinity is also a dimension and simply is the infinite generally. I think we are addressing your other concerns as we go.

Multiplying by infinity is not meaningful in the physical universe owing to a shortage of available infinity.

I presume you mean there are not an infinite amount of objects in the universe? …and I also presume that you believe there isn’t a multiverse and one without limits?

There is no shortage of infinity it is just there within and without, I think that the multiverse is its expression. We cannot as yet show this, but we can draw reality maps, and one without infinity is lacking to say the least.

Look, Infinity and Chaos are concepts, you can't have a bucket of Infinity or a gross of Chaos. The Universe consists of matter, energy and fields, but it isn't made of concepts.

infinity is not a concept. chaos appears to be fundamental also, yet strangely only in coalition with order. we may also ask, by what then is the singularity produced in all its splendour. The laws of physics have a reason for their description of how things work. You look at the material alone but not many people philosophers, metaphysacists etc would agree that is a complete description of reality. You forget qualia! And awareness, and information, and that the material was born from the immaterial!

Anthropic Principle.

Yes you need a universe like ours to produce being like us, funny how much of science makes sense like that ~ kinda obvious really. Now ask yourself why! Why the principle, why doesn’t it mean that ‘reality’ is conducive to our existence and that the universe exists because ‘reality’ has the stuff necessary to make it and indeed does so.

Before asserting the basis for everything existence is about, you need an argument that points strongly towards that basis being valid

Sure that’s why I am here and at other foums asking the questions, we wont find an answer but maybe we edge slightly nearer with each challenge.

Sorry I didn’t answer all of your post, this thread is already way to long and no one will probably read it because of that.

________________________________

Our primate brain is not suited to deal with these questions

Sure it is, it is a product of the very things we are talking about ~ and probably the ultimate product [a larger brain doesn’t work better etc]. I think that one day man will have a far more descriptive vision of our world, …and it will be far far simpler that our current extremely over complex answers. All things can be reduced to their simplest form and for me that is the same in philosophy.

__________________________________

if anything, particles "want to go" (à la Prigogine) towards order (local reductions of entropy), in some circumstances. That is I suspect the order Quetz has in mind.

Yes, but more that there is a far grander reason, one by which such laws arise to begin with. After all these laws only apply to the universe once it has reached the state relative to them, so I am thinking that there is something by which both existence and such laws arise, the law of the laws if you will.

[Hippolord]

You're using law in the judicial sense of the word rather than the scientific one.
Every system tends to go to a state of the lowest possible entropy; this is not "ordered chaos", it's simply an inherent tendency in matter.

But you said so yourself, it is a law of Thermodynamics, therefore it is a scientific law. Scientific laws, as you said are not 100% there just tendancies. Therefore is something has a tendancie to be chaotic, as all matter does, then it is not trully chaotic because there is a level of predictability to it, no matter how small. To be trully chaotic it must have an absoelute 0% chance of being predictable, which is immpossible, just as it is immpossible to be 100% certain about something, outside of a controlled enviorment, in which you have perfect knowledge.

Therefore the Physical universe is not trully chaotic, it just happens to be rather unpredictable. And even to that extent, it is only unpredictable to us, so instead of admitting that it's because we don't understand it, we just say it's because it's chaotic an therefore unpredictable to make ourselves look better.

P.S. I know people have no problem addmitting they don't know somethng in some cases, i'm just saying that we tend to call things "Chaotic" or on a smaller scale "Weird", when the true problem is we don't understand the true order and predictability of it.

[Siblesz]

I wanna lie, lie to myself, myself and someone else. Cause it’s the lying that hurts, and it’s the hurt that lets me know I’m alive.”

Your quote quite nicely summarizes why chaos and order are indivisible forces...

But you said so yourself, it is a law of Thermodynamics, therefore it is a scientific law. Scientific laws, as you said are not 100% there just tendancies. Therefore is something has a tendancie to be chaotic, as all matter does, then it is not trully chaotic because there is a level of predictability to it, no matter how small. To be trully chaotic it must have an absoelute 0% chance of being predictable, which is immpossible, just as it is immpossible to be 100% certain about something, outside of a controlled enviorment, in which you have perfect knowledge.

Therefore the Physical universe is not trully chaotic, it just happens to be rather unpredictable. And even to that extent, it is only unpredictable to us, so instead of admitting that it's because we don't understand it, we just say it's because it's chaotic an therefore unpredictable to make ourselves look better.

Chaos is a nice way to put something that is beyond human control. Humans fear chaos. We identify anything that is beyond our control as chaos. Choose something evil. Pedophilia? That's because the person has a chaotic mind. Civil conflict? These chaotic barbarians don't know how to live in a civilized way. In the end, chaos is just order, speaking a language that we don't want to understand. And as all comes from nothing, nothing comes from all. There's always a source. Whether you want to label that source the big bang, the Brahman, or Allah, or God, it doesn't matter. It's the same thing. We are shadows unto the light. The more we understand life, the more we understand that life comes from death, and that order comes from chaos. But our egos always do a great job at scaring us into the illusion of order, which is just another face of chaos. Only in death will we understand... for there will no longer be an "I" to misguide us into the ego, but an "all" to guide us into everything at the same time... and not through thought, but through pure human instinct, which is just a reflection of the universal instinct, the seed from which everything grows and is separated into parts, parts that are misguided into thinking that they are somehow unique, when they are just manifestations of a singular source. So ask yourselves, who are you, in the end? You are nothing at all... you're just a small part of everything.

It's all a funny joke, anyhow... like one of those jokes that make you laugh and consequently cry hysterically when they breach into that thin line that separates our illusive perceptions with the singular reality of the all. Call it a religious experience. Call it what you want. I think it's hilarious. And yet................ here we are. Joke's on us. Laugh, or cry?

Anyhow, I stopped caring a long time ago. Now, I tend to observe... and laugh. Not much else you can do. Except keeping on living, of course. And admiring the complex beauty of this mirage we call life.

[Hippolord]

Chaos is a nice way to put something that is beyond human control. Humans fear chaos. We identify anything that is beyond our control as chaos. Choose something evil. Pedophilia? That's because the person has a chaotic mind. Civil conflict? These chaotic barbarians don't know how to live in a civilized way. In the end, chaos is just order, speaking a language that we don't want to understand. And as all comes from nothing, nothing comes from all. There's always a source. Whether you want to label that source the big bang, the Brahman, or Allah, or God, it doesn't matter. It's the same thing. We are shadows. The more we understand life, the more we understand that life comes from death, and that order comes from chaos. But our egos always do a great job at scaring us into the illusion of order, which is just another face of chaos.

I like that, thats why i have always said: One day were gogint o go back to the chaos, the chaos that we came from, and we going to turn it into order... Of course it's extremly metaphorical.

Basically it means over time were going to stop being afraid of the dark, of the unknown, because we shall shed light unto it, and make it orderly, man came from chaos, were there is no good or evil, and it is infinantly grey. But over time we are going to destroy this, and we are gogin to make veything black and white, or were going to make verything grey, those are the two options in my opinon. Man wants things to be balck and white, cause we understand those, we can judge them without thought. What we don't like is the chaos, the grey, the dark. But in the end, it is in the chaos that the true understanding lies in my opinon. The mind is chaos, therefore becoming one with the unknown, and thereby making it known, is like becoming one with, ones mind.

And that is a beautiful thing.

[Siblesz]

I like that, thats why i have always said: One day were gogint o go back to the chaos, the chaos that we came from, and we going to turn it into order... Of course it's extremly metaphorical.

Basically it means over time were going to stop being afraid of the dark, of the unknown, because we shall shed light unto it, and make it orderly, man came from chaos, were there is no good or evil, and it is infinantly grey. But over time we are going to destroy this, and we are gogin to make veything black and white, or were going to make verything grey, those are the two options in my opinon. Man wants things to be balck and white, cause we understand those, we can judge them without thought. What we don't like is the chaos, the grey, the dark. But in the end, it is in the chaos that the true understanding lies in my opinon. The mind is chaos, therefore becoming one with the unknown, and thereby making it known, is like becoming one with, ones mind.

And that is a beautiful thing.

I agree with you, but only on an individual basis. I doubt that society as whole will ever reach the point when it faces the dark with eyes open. As an individual, however, one can do the most to try to breach that space.

The way I put it is, we're gonna die anyway. What does it matter whether we die in a nice place, or whether we die a horrible death? It matters none. In the end, we die, and we'll go back to the all. The ultimate reality, to me, lies not in the material, but in the spiritual. That essentially means to stop trying to find solutions to our material way, and to understand that there is no solution... only an eternal process remains... and sure, we're part of it, but just as leaves are part of the tree, it doesn't mean that those leaves can stop the tree from dying if it hasn't rained for a long time.

Maktub. It is written. All we can do is observe, and laugh at the joke. The more we try to "change" things, the more the gods laugh at us. But I say, if the gods laugh at us, well then let us laugh together! Haha! Remember that time when humans thought they were creating utopia, and then WWI happenned? That was hilarious! How about the time Alexander the Great wanted to unite the world in one? Hahaha! All he did was set it up for the Romans to try and fail to do the same thing! Or the time they tried to create a globalized world through materialist b.s. ideology? A Big Mc anyone? Hahaha! Those humans... funny people, they are. Etc, etc, etc.................... I say to myself: stop caring, move on, and enjoy the illusion you've been endowed with.

[Hippolord]

I agree with you, but only on an individual basis. I doubt that society as whole will ever reach the point when it faces the dark with eyes open. As an individual, however, one can do the most to try to breach that space.

The way I put it is, we're gonna die anyway. What does it matter whether we die in a nice place, or whether we die a horrible death? It matters none. In the end, we die, and we'll go back to the all. The ultimate reality, to me, lies not in the material, but in the spiritual. That essentially means to stop trying to find solutions to our material way, and to understand that there is no solution... only an eternal process remains... and sure, we're part of it, but just as leaves are part of the tree, it doesn't mean that those leaves can stop the tree from dying if it hasn't rained for a long time.

Maktub. It is written. All we can do is observe, and laugh at the joke. The more we try to "change" things, the more the gods laugh at us. But I say, if the gods laugh at us, well then let us laugh together! Haha! Remember that time when humans thought they were creating utopia, and then WWI happenned? That was hilarious! How about the time Alexander the Great wanted to unite the world in one? Hahaha! All he did was set it up for the Romans to try and fail to do the same thing! Or the time they tried to create a globalized world through materialist b.s. ideology? A Big Mc anyone? Hahaha! Those humans... funny people, they are. Etc, etc, etc.................... I say to myself: stop caring, move on, and enjoy the illusion you've been endowed with.

A positive view, i like it but we differ on 2 key areas:

I belive we can break the illusions, and trully see? Do i want to?: See my Sig

I agree we should stop caring, as that can only lead us closer...

My beliefs are on a universal scale, but my beliefs lead me to a much more individualistic view: As such i belive that every being is universally important. This is because, the infinite potential of the finite universe is held within the minds of all beings, and as such we have the ability to change the course of the universe, and it's potential. My freind i belive that we do not laugh with the gods...but that we are the gods, of our own illusion, of our own universe, which as far as i am concerened is the universe. Thusly to a certain extent, i do care, if for no other reason than to make the illusion harder to shift threw.

[Siblesz]

A positive view, i like it but we differ on 2 key areas:

I belive we can break the illusions, and trully see? Do i want to?: See my Sig

I agree we should stop caring, as that can only lead us closer...

My beliefs are on a universal scale, but my beliefs lead me to a much more individualistic view: As such i belive that every being is universally important. This is because, the infinite potential of the finite universe is held within the minds of all beings, and as such we have the ability to change the course of the universe, and it's potential. My freind i belive that we do not laugh with the gods...but that we are the gods, of our own illusion, of our own universe, which as far as i am concerened is the universe. Thusly to a certain extent, i do care, if for no other reason than to make the illusion harder to shift threw.

I agree, to an extent. The gods do exist... and so does the one God. We are their illusions, not the other way around. And they are also illusions of something greater than themselves... that unknowable called God. Something cannot come from nothing. If we think, something made us think before us. And nothing proves this more than a good drug trip. Humans have a huge superiority complex... mostly because we think too much. Thoughts deceive one from understanding reality. Reality must be understood through the heart. This is why creating understanding through words is such an impossible process. Just look at the mudpit, and you will see my point!

At the same time, I agree with you in the Kierkegaardian sense that the individual and the collective are the same thing... an individual is a microcosm of the whole. A grain of sand reflects the entire universe. We are all gods. And yet, we're all shi@t. A paradox, and yet it holds. Just a good joke.

And yes, we can break the illusions. But only as individuals. Never through the collective. People who suppose themselves the collective always suffer nasty disillusionment when they realize they did nothing but hurt a lot of people. What we can do is to try and create mutual understanding between the people who live in our lives. But the moment force is used, all understanding disappears and is replaced by ignorance and fear. Unavoidably, something will happen that will bring this second stage into effect. But all that matters is that we hold true to who we are as individuals, and not be persuaded to lose and betray ourselves when the going gets tough.

[Hippolord]

I agree, to an extent. The gods do exist... and so does the one God. We are their illusions, not the other way around. And they are also illusions of something greater than themselves... that unknowable called God. Something cannot come from nothing. If we think, something made us think before us. And nothing proves this more than a good drug trip. Humans have a huge superiority complex... mostly because we think too much. Thoughts deceive one from understanding reality. Reality must be understood through the heart. This is why creating understanding through words is such an impossible process. Just look at the mudpit, and you will see my point!

At the same time, I agree with you in the Kierkegaardian sense that the individual and the collective are the same thing... an individual is a microcosm of the whole. A grain of sand reflects the entire universe. We are all gods. And yet, we're all shi@t. A paradox, and yet it holds. Just a good joke.

And yes, we can break the illusions. But only as individuals. Never through the collective. People who suppose themselves the collective always suffer nasty disillusionment when they realize they did nothing but hurt a lot of people. What we can do is to try and create mutual understanding between the people who live in our lives. But the moment force is used, all understanding disappears and is replaced by ignorance and fear. Unavoidably, something will happen that will bring this second stage into effect. But all that matters is that we hold true to who we are as individuals, and not be persuaded to lose and betray ourselves when the going gets tough.

I belive in one ultimate god i a way, but i belive him to be more of a universal moderator rather than an all powerful being. He is the constant, in our universal equation, while we are the variable, A.K.A., he is the zero. On the other hand, we as the variable have immense power, we can change, and therby change the whole equation, but in a sense it will always be the same equation, due to the constant, it will alway be the universe. And i agree that it is our thoughts that decieve us, thats why we must go deeper, into the mind, the mind in my opinon, is seperate from thought. The mind is the ultiamte awareness of thought, just as the soul is the awareness of the mind. Thusly threw the mind, and it's infinite potential, we can beomce aware of our own thoughts, and see threw them, and the illuions that they like to create.

We are one part of the greater whole, without us there is no whole, but as one, we are nothing. But as all we are damn near everything.

True, we are each onyl part of a collective, but as part of it, are thoughts can change the collective as a whole, and thre it we can change the universe as a whole (Variable). But society is an intresting thing oyu see, because we each have our own little universes, some call it "There lives". And in these universes there is no other way to see than from the inside looking out, lest you are very skille din the mind. And as such you can never trully understand other people, but society is an attempt to get about of people together and try as god damned hard as you can. Thusly as you said yourself, we create mutual understanding known as society, though sometimes it fails in understanding people. Thusly instea dof trying to understand them, we try and force them to be like us, because we consider ourselves ot be the normla, to be the constant, and that is a very arrognat thing. And as you said that will lead us to force, and as soon as the force i used then all understanding shall dissappear.

And once again, as you said, this is ineveitable, one day something will happpen, because we're so scared, aren't we? So scared of what we don't know, of what we don't understand. And yes, we must always be loyal to self, because in the end, when we curl up into out little dark corner, and try and ride it out as the world goes to hell; What else is there? But self? You and your own little universe must live threw it all, just as all others must. Why? Maybe because were insane? I don't think so. Because we are so damn hopeful? I don't think so. Because in the end we're just like children, who need ourselves like a mother, to cover us in the blanket of illusions, so that we can forget the hell around us, and go back to our candy land? Most likely.

[Amorphos]

I am just wondering how we can have such a thing as illusion, I would only describe things as there [and hence real] or not there [still real].

To have something that is there and not there or not there but there, seams completely illogical. I can understand there are confused states, yet even these are real in some way.

[Playfishpaste]

I would actually say quite the opposite, that there is no Chaos (Or very little) in the Physical world, and that the chaos is within the mind, and many things non-physical. It is within the physical world, that we are bound, there are laws, and chains, and boundaries, which physical things cannot break or cross. The physical world, is the world of order, and of laws. Thusly in the physical world in it's current state, infinity is impossible.

I think you're confusing what chaos actually is, with the laymen definition of it. All systems in the physical world, closed or open, are entropic. Boundaries do not imply order. The speed limit for objects (the speed of light) does not make the universe any more orderly.

Nay, it is within the mind that we become free, were chaos reigns. It is within the mind that you know no bounds, and no chains exsist lest you make them yourself, no boundaries are set, lest you set them. Thusly within the Physical world, there is order, and lack of freedom. Within the mind there is no order, and you are free.

The two are not mutually exclusive. If the world were perfectly orderly, you could still have freedom, if the world were completely entropic, you could still have freedom. You're talking different stuff here.