Regarding CA's last Daily Update (Sea Warfare)

[Barristan Selmy]

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic...te.html?page=4

What? Sloops > Ships of the Line? , amongst other things.

[boche]

not really, i saw this the other day, it just meant thats sloops will have more range and accuracy, if played well a sloop couldnt stand up to a SOL.

[alpaca]

On the contrary, if played well the sloop will be able to always stay out of range of the SOL. The problem with naval warfare is that CA is in a bit of a tight spot. Small ships are more easily maneouverable and that is their sole advantage over large ships: on the high seas, however, where all battles are played in ETW, this advantage doesn't make a lot of difference and in reality a ship of the line would probably always beat ten small ships coming at it.

The main problem was being able to afford and supply the big juggernauts and that is more or less reflected in the campaign by their technology and building requirements. For custom battles, however, this is not reflected and so Jack seems to think they have to introduce an artificial paper, scissors, rock design that simply doesn't make a lot of sense. I would rather introduce unit caps for ship classes (so you can only have a number of ships of the line in a battle that can be set by the host) to promote more mixed fleets.

Also, small ships should be able to more easily outmaneouver big ships: The latter turn way too fast and they should have a hard time going against the wind. What CA is doing at the moment looks to me to end in "frigates beat everything if controlled correctly" but anyways, I think we should make this more realistic in the mod (I'm also not hugely concerned with custom battles, the campaign is more important to me).

[Indus_Valley]

I would rather introduce unit caps for ship classes (so you can only have a number of ships of the line in a battle that can be set by the host) to promote more mixed fleets.

Will you be considering naval unit caps in upcoming updates ? I'd like to see it personally, especially tied in with supply. It might avoid the mid-late game fleet of doom.

[uos_spo6]

I haven't seen much imbalance that I thought needed correction. Brigs, Sloops and Xebecs are simply hard to catch and get a good pass on.

Choose your correct deployment position with reference to the wind guage and you only need one pass with a short line of SOLs to blow small ships out of the water. I personally like the "paper, rock, scissor" approach of CA, it doesn't give small ships any edge except survivability which they desparately needed.

I will admit I had to refight a few naval engagements at first in the opening stages of campaigns, but that was only when dealing with ultra maneuverable xebecs. After adopting different strategies they were easy enough to deal with. Fire some grape shot at them and they fold real quick as usual with those open decks. Brigs are still powder kegs just waitin to be hit in the sweet spot.

Try playing as faction that can't produce anything but small ships til sometime mid campaign. You'll find the balance and improved small ship ability comforting and fun.

Sixth rates are one of my favorite ships in the game and this balance has more detrimental effect on them than ANY unit, considering they are at the bottom of the Frigate pool. Matching 6ths against Brigs and Sloops now is even more difficult and a less assured victory, but I still dig the set up.

[l33tl4m3r]

You guys can pretty much ignore the whole update -- we've got our work on naval units, a continuing endeavour -- and we will continue to make our own changes that better suit historical accuracy.

I am 100% against the "rock, paper, scissors" approach that CA is presenting and we will NOT be using it.

[alpaca]

Will you be considering naval unit caps in upcoming updates ? I'd like to see it personally, especially tied in with supply. It might avoid the mid-late game fleet of doom.

For the campaign you mean? Maybe, but I abhor the hard caps and I'm not yet sure how to do something like that.

[Seraph07]

Im using the latest pack from core pack from the 29th, and I have to say galleons are extremely overpowered. They have the same hull strength as third rate ship of the line.

Also i loaded the game several times, but my 5th rate admiral starts getting the sinking symbol at the beginning of the battle, is he just pre disposed to sinking? Also surrenderd ships are doing that annoying think where they sink after surrendering again

I think increasing all hull strengths by about 25% should fix the problem.

[boche]

galeons may have the stregth hull of a 3rd rate (they historically needed a strong hull) but their cannons are severely weak, you can destroy many of them with one broadside, compared to other ships i think this counterbalances

[uos_spo6]

Also i loaded the game several times, but my 5th rate admiral starts getting the sinking symbol at the beginning of the battle, is he just pre disposed to sinking? Also surrenderd ships are doing that annoying think where they sink after surrendering again.

Is the ships hull perhaps damaged but cannons not so you aren't noticing?


Encountered that surrender --> sinking problem today when trying to build up a fleet of 5ths through capturing with Malta. Wore out Barbary 5th rate, slowed it down, sent a 6th rate to board it. It surrendered, battle over, decisive victory, no captured ships in my queue to claim.

Reloaded from start of battle and simmed it, AI gave me the 5th through sim victory but I lost a 6th I wouldn't have had the manual battle given me my dang prize.

Same problem couple turns later when trying to capture another Barbary 5th Rate. Same solution, won the battle manually, boarded the 5th and didn't get to claim it after wards. Reloaded from pre battle save and simmed, got the ship, lost some small ships I'd rather have not but at least I got the 5th.

Very depressing to be forced to sim the battle to get whats rightfully yours though!


EDIT: I've always found Galleons too strong of a ship. Boche is right about it seeming easy to take out their cannons but they are still quite powerful given their rampant and early availibility. I'd like to see their hull strength knocked down 15-20% personally.

[Jonathan654]

Maybe link a sotl cap with number of lumber camps owned?

that would be more realistic since the main problem with sotls were the huge wood requirement.

[The Donz]

What if your nation has no lumber camp at all?

[alpaca]

Maybe link a sotl cap with number of lumber camps owned?

that would be more realistic since the main problem with sotls were the huge wood requirement.

Ya, as Donz said there are too few lumber camps around for this to make sense. Lumber camps might increase a cap but making them a requirement is not a good idea in my opinion.

[Seraph07]

Can we change that in the start pos? I hate the ' pleasure garden' upgrade anyway, by the end of the game Europe is awash in them

[Jonathan654]

Ya, as Donz said there are too few lumber camps around for this to make sense. Lumber camps might increase a cap but making them a requirement is not a good idea in my opinion.

or link it to something like a metal workshop.

[TheSavage]

Why not just make the lumber camp give a serious discount to ship construction... like 20-30%. Or they could add a recruit slot for ships (also very valuable) or reduce construction time by 1-turn. This makes the few lumber camps very valuable, maybe even worth fighting a war over... But it doesn't prevent any faction from building big ships.

[krait23]

You guys can pretty much ignore the whole update -- we've got our work on naval units, a continuing endeavour -- and we will continue to make our own changes that better suit historical accuracy.

I am 100% against the "rock, paper, scissors" approach that CA is presenting and we will NOT be using it.

I am very glad to read this. This change from CA is total bollocks and historical nonsense. Sloops sailing circles around ships if the line outside their range wearing them down? my ass...

Afaik the heavier guns on the ships of the line actually had longer ranges in the first place, not to mention that accuracy and penetration at extreme range was very very bad...
And while a single 32-pounder shot from a 3rd rate could devastate a sloop, a 6pdr or 9pdr shot from one of the small ships would probably not even penetrate the hull of a ship of the line at any kind of 'safe' range.

There was a very good reason that almost every major naval engagement of the time was fought mostly by ships of the line and frigates and smaller ships were only a side note to history. Their main importance was scouting, which is kinda made obsolete in this game though by the long spotting and move ranges on the campaign map. Also I guess to intercept the ships that had an easy time getting away from ships of the line.

About the only thing I agree with in the changes is that they increase the power of chain shot, as it does indeed seem to take much too long to kill a ships rigging.

If they want to make smaller ships more worthwhile in the game (and I do not actually consider the silly single battles as part of the game tbh), they need to work on the naval AI and make enemy small fleets run away from SOLs, rather than merrily sailing into my broadsides. Then to deal with the enemy smallies, you will either need favorable winds and a coast in the enemies back, or your own small ships.

And while I am at it about navies, the whole concept of Galleons as a buildable ship in this game is kinda stupid. Galleons were obsolete by the mid 1600s already, and few if any were actually built after 1700. The existing ones should be weak old ships whose only saving grace would be a huge cargo hold. Definitely not the formidable combatants that they actually are atm.
And no new ones should be buildable imho.

As far as lumber goes, it strikes me as a most excellent idea to somehow tie that into shipbuilding. Ideally it would be another number like manpower and supply, every ship would need a certain amount, every region would produce a certain small amount, boosted immensely by lumber mills. And when you are building ships costing more lumber than you have, you have to buy the remaining lumber from the 'world market' or forage it especially for this purpose, increasing costs drastically. Same for repairs.
A simple reduction in ship cost (going hand in hand with an increase in base cost) could work also, but kinda makes it hard to simulate the effect of multiple lumber mills (few of them = too little effect, or many of them = too large effect).

[Barristan Selmy]

SoL -> better Accuracy, Range, Firepower and Hull strength.

Every other ship -> better turning rate and speed (avoid SoL).

Conclusion -> CA just went .

[Keyzzz]

in my humbelest of humble opinions, the biggest flaw WRT navies atm is the fact thati can lock down an entire nations ports by sending 1 sloop per port into the port to either occupy it or blocade it, and from that point on, that country is navy-less. Destroy their main fleet and send a zerg of the cheapest ships you can build to control their ports and its game-over for them. Dont get me wrong, its certainly convenient to not have to defend my trade routes, especially by taking the ports of the Pirates and Barbary States, but i almost feel cheaty by doing it. there is nothing in the world they can do once you've snagged their ports... they will remian navy-less interminably. if they send a land unit to free up the port, fine ill sail into it next turn, or better yet, if they leave it there, i can simply blockade it. The later is ideal imo as once you've blockaded the port, its simultaneously useless to the offender and i never have to micro-manage that ship into that port in a later turn. Once its blockaded, they can't build a navy and they cant get rid of my ship. Cheaty, but effective.

[Xelathur]

Why not just make the lumber camp give a serious discount to ship construction... like 20-30%. Or they could add a recruit slot for ships (also very valuable) or reduce construction time by 1-turn. This makes the few lumber camps very valuable, maybe even worth fighting a war over... But it doesn't prevent any faction from building big ships.

Man, this is an awesome idea! Great thoughts! +rep

Modders, you know what to do now.