The Karabagh war

[General David]

The land of Artsakh (now called Nagorno-Karabagh) was historically part of Eastern Armenia for a very long time. As Armenia was subdued under the rule of foreign empires, the mountainous region always remained autonomous. During Persian rule, the Armenian meliks (princes) of Karabagh had authority over the Armenians, who have always constituted the majority.

In the 1720s-1730s, a long war with the Ottoman Empire ravaged Artsakh while internal disagreements further weakened its administration. As a result, the Armenian meliks of Artsakh succumbed to the pressure of the Muslim tribes which managed to execute their long-coveted goal of penetrating the region and ruling it directly. The consequence was the formation of the Karabakh Khanate, a self-proclaimed but short-lived Muslim principality in Artsakh that in 1805 was absorbed into the Russian Empire...

In 1921, responding to economic blackmail from oil-producing Azerbaijan and threats from Turkey, Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin forcibly placed Artsakh under the Azerbaijani rule, as the world's only Christian territorial autonomy inside a largely Muslim nation. For the next 70 years, Azerbaijan bombarded Artsakh with various forms of ethno-religious discrimination, economic mistreatment and intentional demographic abuse, in an attempt to eliminate its Armenian Christian majority and replace it with Azerbaijani Muslim settlers. After decades of intermittent protests, the dissolution of the Soviet Union finally allowed Artsakh to break away from Baku's rule, in 1988, and, in 1991, re-establish itself as a free and sovereign nation-the Nagorno Karabakh Republic (not recognized internationally).

A ceasefire is in effect, but clashes still happen on the border. Azerbaijan's president frequently threatens to restart the war...

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...orld-headlines


What do you think?

[RusskiSoldat]

I support the Armenians, and hope that they annex Karabagh. Nothing good will happen to Russia if another piece of land in the Caucusus falls under muslim rule.

[General David]

Yes, but if peace reigns in Armenia and Azerbaijan, Russia won't have a pretext to keep military bases in Armenia.

[Mehmed II]

Strangely this is a touchy issue. I find it very strange that Armenians who cry ''OH GENOCIDE! YOU EVIL TURKS!'' keep their silence when someone mentions what Armenians did there just a little more than a decade ago?

I do not know much about the issue, but a world based on historical borders is impossible. I say look at the population there and determine whether it wants to be in an azerbaijani or armenian rule and come up with a decision.

[Valdemar]

Mehmed, I may be reading more into your comments than you intended, if so, just bear with me. The current borders of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabak are not "historical". They were imposed largely by the Turks and later Soviet Empire.

However, I think I understand what you mean. I think you mean that borders should be drawn around people of common heritage, culture, language, religion, etc... in order to avoid conflict. If this is what you meant, I agree fully.

Yugoslavia is a prime example of a war that started over several groups of distinct peoples being forced to live together after a completely artificial border was drawn around them after WWI. There is no such person as a "Yugoslav". The country was made up of Slovenes, Serbs, Macedonians (ethnic Bulgars), Bosnians, and a smattering of Albanian immigrants. And with the exception of the struggle between Bosnia and Serbia, peace broke out almost immediately after these groups got their own country.

The solution to the struggle between Armenia and Azerbijan is simple. Move the ethnic Azerbijanis from their enclave of Nakhichevan into Azerbijan proper, and move the Armenians of NK into Nakhichevan. In essence, exchange cut-off enclaves and move the people accordingly. I must say that I agree with original poster in that Armenia really has the moral high ground in this dispute, and as a Christian, I don't not want to see more people fall under the oppressive heal of Islam.

[General David]

Strangely this is a touchy issue. I find it very strange that Armenians who cry ''OH GENOCIDE! YOU EVIL TURKS!'' keep their silence when someone mentions what Armenians did there just a little more than a decade ago?

Unlike the Genocide, this was a case when Armenians fairly fought against Azerbaijan and won.


btw this was the first sign showing that the Soviet Union is disintegrating.

Move the ethnic Azerbijanis from their enclave of Nakhichevan into Azerbijan proper, and move the Armenians of NK into Nakhichevan.

That's not really an easy thing to do. Will Azerbaijan cooperate with Armenia?

About Nakhichevan - It's another historical Armenian region where Armenians constituted the majority just a century ago, but was also assigned to Azerbaijan. In this case, Azerbaijan was able to eliminate the Armenian population with ''various forms of ethno-religious discrimination, economic mistreatment and intentional demographic abuse''. Karabaghis were not going to let their land become like Nakhichevan.

A reminder of what Turkey had to do with this - In support of its' Turkic ''brothers'', Turkey closed the Turkish-Armenian border. Opening the border is one of the many challenges it still has to face for the European Union.

[Mehmed II]

nlike the Genocide, this was a case when Armenians fairly fought against Azerbaijan and won.

Why am I not surprised to this response?
General David, I thought you were something different. But I was mistaken. Just like your smart pants friends who glorify a maniac like stalin and complain about the Armenian genocide, you're saying that the massacre of Khojaly was a fair fight? Killing children and women was a part of the fair fight too? Among those disgusting pictures, I saw a picture of a dead pregnant Azerbaijani women, with the baby replaced with the head of his husband of course. I must say, that was original...

You're right when you said that we, as turks, should confront our history. Yes, we must also mourn our losses. Why should Turkey accept the Armenian Genocide when you ignore that six hundred thousand turkish civilians has been killed by the armenian gangs during the russian invasion of 1916-1918?
Why should Turkey accept the hellenic genocide when 5 million turks has been killed and 5 more million turks has been deported by greeks in the century between 1821 and 1921? Do the greeks talk about what they did to the turks of Treephollyche?
Do the Russians talk about their massacres they've done to the turks in Bulgaria? No one gives a crap about the 60 thousand turks that has been killed in 1878 by the command of General Burkov himself..What about the massacres of Bela forest? or Zishtovi?
Arnod Tyonbee, the guy badmouthed the turks the most in his famous ''Blue Book'', after seeing what the greek armies and the armenian gangs were doing in asia minor, became a friend of the second turkish prime minister himself.

Wow, this is fun...

[General David]

I don’t know about what happened in Khojali… But if a massacre really did occure, Armenia should recognize it and condemn it. If it was true, Khojali was not fair, but a war between countries of 3 million against a country of 7 million wasn’t fair either. The fact that Turkey supported and still supports Azerbaijan isn’t fair too. Or the fact that Islamic mercenaries helped Azerbaijan also wasn’t fair. Were the massacres of Armenians in Baku (1990) or Sumgait (1988) fair?

Are you sure those pictures you saw weren’t ‘photoshopped’, as you used to say about similar pictures of Armenians during the Genocide?

Despite 2 million Turks living in Germany, despite Germany being a staunch supporter of Turkey in the EU, its parliament recently acknowledged the Genocide, and even apologized because Germany didn’t do anything while the massacres were happening. Why? Why hasn’t a single country recognized what you claim as massacres of Turks? The Turkish lobby and the ‘other’ lobby supporting Turkey isn’t strong enough, or is it because what your claims are lies?

Where are those smilies when you need them!

[therussian]

David, though I do like the subject matter of this topic, I do think that this will all disintegrate into a Genocide topic and eventually will be closed by a moderator.

Having said that, the war for Nagorno Karabakh (which is Turkish by the way, Artsakh in Armenian) has been devestating for both countries. Though, under Stalin it was placed under the territory of Armenian SSR, along with Nakichevan, it was then suddenly changed, and both territories go to Azerbajian

[General David]

The name Karabagh is Turkish (Kara) and Farsi (bagh) means Black forest.

[Mehmed II]

I don’t know about what happened in Khojali… But if a massacre really did occure, Armenia should recognize it and condemn it. If it was true, Khojali was not fair, but a war between countries of 3 million against a country of 7 million wasn’t fair either. The fact that Turkey supported and still supports Azerbaijan isn’t fair too. Or the fact that Islamic mercenaries helped Azerbaijan also wasn’t fair. Were the massacres of Armenians in Baku (1990) or Sumgait (1988) fair?

Yes, thank you. That is the answer I want to get. Of course they weren't fair.

Are you sure those pictures you saw weren’t ‘photoshopped’, as you used to say about similar pictures of Armenians during the Genocide?

This is an event that happened in 1992. I just wanted to tell that an extra clear picture belonging to 1915 seemed strange to me. That's it.

Despite 2 million Turks living in Germany, despite Germany being a staunch supporter of Turkey in the EU, its parliament recently acknowledged the Genocide, and even apologized because Germany didn’t do anything while the massacres were happening.

Germany, no matter how many turks live in it, is in a union people consider as a christian club. and the recent referendums showed how the people think of Germany's diplomatic intimacy with Turkey.
What does that prove anyway? If we will debate like that, Turks have already been found innocent in Malta trials, end of story.

Why? Why hasn’t a single country recognized what you claim as massacres of Turks? The Turkish lobby and the ‘other’ lobby supporting Turkey isn’t strong enough, or is it because what your claims are lies?

Don't worry, they will think about it later on. This is something that began in March 2005, when Turkey invited Armenia to open it's archives. Of course your prime minister said that the world already knew what happened and refused to open it.

These times are one of the unusual ones where the turkish intellectuals really think of a retaliation, an offensive stance instead of a defensive one..

Also tell me, why? Why would the same Europe, whose reaction was a simple shrug to what the greek army was doing in Asia minor, the same europe who ignored what the ruskies and greeks were doing in caucasus and thrace just because '' they were regaining their lands'', would even think of really listening to the turks?

The numbers I have from greece, aren't even from a turkish source. It's from a man named Justin Mccarthy, sure you recognize him. The massacre of Trepollyche are from the Ottoman documents. In 1821, it was counted that there were 35k turks in treephollyche. Guess what? In 1822, they don't exist.

The numbers I have considering Armenia are straight from national counts. Out of those six hundred thousand deaths, 523.955 are certain. and don't worry, for I gave you the number of children and women (thinking that if I gave you the number of male deaths, you would see them as combatants)whose names, families and the villages they're from, are all known.

My stance is clear. It was a total war. Everyone slayed each other, the actions the turks made, of course, aren't justified. But the turks also have their past and just like you're doing it now, ignoring those, is very unfair.

[General David]

Germany, no matter how many turks live in it, is in a union people consider as a christian club. and the recent referendums showed how the people think of Germany's diplomatic intimacy with Turkey.

If the Christian democrats win the elections in Germany, it won’t get any better for Turkey.

The Malta trials never existed. There was only one Turkish searcher that really adventured in this subject and it is Bilal N. Simsir. I will just quote the last words from his work: “The Deportees of Malta and the Armenian Question.”

As a result, all detainees at Malta were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal.

Even Raphael Lemkin, the one who coined the word Genocide, considered the Armenian case as an example for a Genocide.

A bit about the trials in Istanbul, in 1919. (from wikipedia)

Many of those responsible for the genocide were sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. The martial court established the will of the Ittheadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its special organization. The Court Martial, Istanbul, 1919: "The Court Martial taking into consideration the above-named crimes declares, unanimously, the culpability as principle factors of these crimes the fugitives Talat Pasha, former Grand Vizir, Enver Efendi, former War Minister, struck off the register of the Imperial Army, Cemal Efendi, former Navy Minister, struck off too from the Imperial Army, and Dr. Nazim Efendi, former Minister of Education, members of the General Council of the Union & Progress, representing the moral person of that party;... the Court Martial pronounces, in accordance with said stipulations of the Law the death penalty against Talat, Enver, Cemal, and Dr. Nazim."

Don't worry, they will think about it later on. This is something that began in March 2005, when Turkey invited Armenia to open it's archives. Of course your prime minister said that the world already knew what happened and refused to open it.

The Armenian archives are open. A Turk has even studied in the archives, but guess what – he tried to steal old Armenian manuscripts.

http://www.the-dispatch.com/apps/pbc...97&cachetime=5

Also tell me, why? Why would the same Europe, whose reaction was a simple shrug to what the greek army was doing in Asia minor, the same europe who ignored what the ruskies and greeks were doing in caucasus and thrace just because '' they were regaining their lands'', would even think of really listening to the turks?

European countries didn’t care about the Armenian massacres either. That is why Germany apologized for standing by while Armenians were being massacred. Europe cared about its’ interests, that’s all.

Is this the same Europe Turks are so eager to join?

These times are one of the unusual ones where the turkish intellectuals really think of a retaliation, an offensive stance instead of a defensive one..

What about those Turkish intellectuals who tried to participate in a conference in Bogazici University, to question the official Turkish policy of denial? The conference was cancelled because Turkish officials such as Cemil Cicek regarded this as a ‘stab in the back’.

It's from a man named Justin Mccarthy

Ah yes. The man who sold himself to the Turks. As I told you before, Armenians were barely able to look after themeselves especially in 1915.

More German than Jews died in World War II, but this is irrelevant, neither does it reduce the guilt of the Nazi government, since most Jews did not die for the same reasons as Germans died. Armenians were sent in concentration camps build in the desert to die en mass.


The victims of the genocide were the Ottoman Armenians; most of the Armenians that were fighting during the Russian advance of them were Russian Armenians fighting for their own Empire, like the Ottoman Armenians were fighting for theirs.

A fairly new site about the genocide - http://www.twentyvoices.com/
A detailed site about the Karabagh war - http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/index.shtml

[Mehmed II]

The Malta trials never existed. There was only one Turkish searcher that really adventured in this subject and it is Bilal N. Simsir. I will just quote the last words from his work: “The Deportees of Malta and the Armenian Question.”

As a result, all detainees at Malta were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal.

Even Raphael Lemkin, the one who coined the word Genocide, considered the Armenian case as an example for a Genocide.

A bit about the trials in Istanbul, in 1919. (from wikipedia)

Many of those responsible for the genocide were sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. The martial court established the will of the Ittheadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its special organization. The Court Martial, Istanbul, 1919: "The Court Martial taking into consideration the above-named crimes declares, unanimously, the culpability as principle factors of these crimes the fugitives Talat Pasha, former Grand Vizir, Enver Efendi, former War Minister, struck off the register of the Imperial Army, Cemal Efendi, former Navy Minister, struck off too from the Imperial Army, and Dr. Nazim Efendi, former Minister of Education, members of the General Council of the Union & Progress, representing the moral person of that party;... the Court Martial pronounces, in accordance with said stipulations of the Law the death penalty against Talat, Enver, Cemal, and Dr. Nazim."

Sure if you say so, but I don't get this. How can they be so sure that the accused succeded in destroying the majority of the documents?

The Armenian archives are open. A Turk has even studied in the archives, but guess what – he tried to steal old Armenian manuscripts.

What I said did happen. Just write Armenian genocide in wikipedia and look for March 2005.

March, 2005: The Turkish Prime Minister and the head of the opposition held a press conference proposing the meeting of Armenian and Turkish historians to find out what really happened. The Prime Minister also called on Armenia to open its archives. The Armenian Foreign Minister rejected the invitation, stating that the world already knew what happened, and that its archives have always been open.

Is this the same Europe Turks are so eager to join?

Perhaps you get the impression that all the turks in this country are jumping around singing the ''Eu'' song, sorry my friend, as a citizen I can tell you this is not the case. We've got many other problems, Eu is just one of them.
Of course you can blame our hot shot ''moderate looking'' president, who has conferences everywhere he goes and blabbers. Perhaps he's the source of your impressions.

What about those Turkish intellectuals who tried to participate in a conference in Bogazici University, to question the official Turkish policy of denial? The conference was cancelled because Turkish officials such as Cemil Cicek regarded this as a ‘stab in the back’.

Heh, that was sad. So were the efforts of Armenians who tried to pass a legislation that showed the denial of the genocide as a crime. There are these kinds of works on both sides...

Ah yes. The man who sold himself to the Turks.

Sure, if a guy has a pro turkish stance, he is a Sob. If a guy has a pro armenian stance, he is the defender of the good. There goes the attitude which ensures the hostility between us..

More German than Jews died in World War II, but this is irrelevant, neither does it reduce the guilt of the Nazi government, since most Jews did not die for the same reasons as Germans died. Armenians were sent in concentration camps build in the desert to die en mass.

The six hundred thousand number I gave you is for women and children. The number concerning greeks includes a century.
The turkish expansion policy, throughout history, has always included the moving of turcomans to conquered areas. Considering that the Ottomans had lands in the balkans and the caucasus since the 14th century, there were millions of turks who saw these lands as their home... How many are left now?

The victims of the genocide were the Ottoman Armenians; most of the Armenians that were fighting during the Russian advance of them were Russian Armenians fighting for their own Empire, like the Ottoman Armenians were fighting for theirs.

Is it just me or is there only one Armenia today? If Turks have to recognize a crime the Ottomans have done, then the Armenians have to recognize a crime the Russian armenians have one.

[Iskender Bey]

Wasnt there a population excahnge between the Balkan countries and Turkey?

[General David]

Sure if you say so, but I don't get this. How can they be so sure that the accused succeded in destroying the majority of the documents?

Exactly. We can't be sure.Why don't you ask them the next time you see them...

Are the Turkish military archives open?

What I said did happen. Just write Armenian genocide in wikipedia and look for March 2005.

I know it's true. I remember reading it in a news site. But then, another minister said that the archives are open to all, but there were no Turks studying them. Then that Turk (Hasan Turkyilmaz) went to the Armenian archives to study. Now, we see that same Turk arrested for stealing old manuscripts.

Perhaps he's the source of your impressions.

Exactly. He's the one who is supposed to represent the Turkey, as a prime minister. What do you think about Turkey's entrance in EU?

Heh, that was sad. So were the efforts of Armenians who tried to pass a legislation that showed the denial of the genocide as a crime. There are these kinds of works on both sides...

What about Yusuf Halacoglu - the father of all deniers - who recently was almost arrested in Switzerland for denying the Genocide in a conference.

The six hundred thousand number I gave you is for women and children. The number concerning greeks includes a century.
The turkish expansion policy, throughout history, has always included the moving of turcomans to conquered areas. Considering that the Ottomans had lands in the balkans and the caucasus since the 14th century, there were millions of turks who saw these lands as their home... How many are left now?

As Iskender bey said, there was a population exchange after the Lausanne treaty. 900 000 Turks of Greece were exchange for 1.5 million Greeks of Turkey.

The Turks in Armenia were considered Azeris. They moved out of Armenia during the Karabagh war, so did the Armenians of Azerbaijan.

Is it just me or is there only one Armenia today? If Turks have to recognize a crime the Ottomans have done, then the Armenians have to recognize a crime the Russian armenians have one.

There was no Armenian government back then, regardless whether massacres against Turks occured or not. Contrary to this, there was a Turkish government in 1915, even though it was known as Ottoman Turkey.

Taking Eastern Anatolia was a decision coming from the Russian Empire, not an Armenian decision.

[Mehmed II]

Exactly. We can't be sure.Why don't you ask them the next time you see them...

Are the Turkish military archives open?

If they make a live conference about it telling everyone to observe them, I suppose they are open.

Exactly. He's the one who is supposed to represent the Turkey, as a prime minister. What do you think about Turkey's entrance in EU?

It would be great if we joined but it's not going to happen, at least in my younghood.

What about Yusuf Halacoglu - the father of all deniers - who recently was almost arrested in Switzerland for denying the Genocide in a conference.

Arrested? Why should he be arrested for expressing an opinion? Should you be arrested for denying my claims? What were the armenians there thinking when they tried to pass a legislation that put denying as a crime, was it a reaction to the turkey's ''offensive'' retaliation, do they have something to hide?

As Iskender bey said, there was a population exchange after the Lausanne treaty. 900 000 Turks of Greece were exchange for 1.5 million Greeks of Turkey.

This is something that has happened in 1920's. The massacre at Treepollyche happened a century ago. I'm talking about a century here.

There was no Armenian government back then, regardless whether massacres against Turks occured or not. Contrary to this, there was a Turkish government in 1915, even though it was known as Ottoman Turkey.

Taking Eastern Anatolia was a decision coming from the Russian Empire, not an Armenian decision.

Don't give me that crap General David, I'm not that naive. The Russian and the Ottoman armenians were given the promise of forming their own empire by the Russians and English. Don't tell me that they were forced to carve their own nation.Starting from Kars-Ardahan (30k turks massacred), the Armenian gangs that came with the russian armies cleansed all eastern anatolia (You should've noticed that the huge chunk of the number six thousand belongs to women and children, that is because almost every male who was healthy enough was sent to the fronts)

When I mention the massacres of Kars Ardahan, or Treephollyche, General Burkov or the people that were killed, I am just saying that there are both sides of the coin. Sorry, but the turkey doesn't have to recognize crap in this case...Tell me, how does it feel to be accused of a genocide?

Moreover, have you heard of the meeting in Austria, where the turkish and the armenian historians gathered to talk about the genocide. The Armenian side left when the turks presented them about 50 documents to refute their claims....

[General David]

Arrested? Why should he be arrested for expressing an opinion? Should you be arrested for denying my claims? What were the armenians there thinking when they tried to pass a legislation that put denying as a crime, was it a reaction to the turkey's ''offensive'' retaliation, do they have something to hide?

Everyone can have a different opinion on such subjects, but if Holocaust deniers are punished, why shouldn’t Armenian Genocide deniers also get punished (even though Turkey hasn’t acknowledged it yet)?

I don't think Turkey will do it though. They didn't put so much effort into denying it for nothing. Turkey will be reminded of these things everywhere (latest Armenian protests in Lebanon, for example...) Knowing the ARF (Tashnagtsutyun), the main organizer of these protests around the world, they will never stop.

This is something that has happened in 1920's. The massacre at Treepollyche happened a century ago. I'm talking about a century here.

I searched ‘Treepollyche’ on google. Nothing came up. Are you sure that such a place even exists?

Don't give me that crap General David, I'm not that naive. The Russian and the Ottoman armenians were given the promise of forming their own empire by the Russians and English. Don't tell me that they were forced to carve their own nation.Starting from Kars-Ardahan (30k turks massacred), the Armenian gangs that came with the russian armies cleansed all eastern anatolia (You should've noticed that the huge chunk of the number six thousand belongs to women and children, that is because almost every male who was healthy enough was sent to the fronts)

If Armenians had really massacred these people, they might have actually kept those lands.

Sorry, but the turkey doesn't have to recognize crap in this case...Tell me, how does it feel to be accused of a genocide?

Dresden Bombings didn’t prevent Germany to recognize the Jewish Holocaust. Turkish allegations of massacres by Armenians shouldn't prevent the proper recognition of the Genocide.

Moreover, have you heard of the meeting in Austria, where the turkish and the armenian historians gathered to talk about the genocide. The Armenian side left when the turks presented them about 50 documents to refute their claims....

I have also heard that the Turkish newspaper ‘Zaman’ propagated certain fake reports on this.

What about the various death threats various Turkish intellectuals, such as Orhan Pamuk, had to face after acknowledging that more than a million Armenians were killed in 1915?

[Mehmed II]

Everyone can have a different opinion on such subjects, but if Holocaust deniers are punished, why shouldn’t Armenian Genocide deniers also get punished (even though Turkey hasn’t acknowledged it yet)?

Ok, I couldn't care less. But if you agree with the punishment of the deniers of the armenian genocide, then you have no right in complaining about the reactions of the turkish statement to the genocide conferences in turkey.

I don't think Turkey will do it though. They didn't put so much effort into denying it for nothing. Turkey will be reminded of these things everywhere (latest Armenian protests in Lebanon, for example...) Knowing the ARF (Tashnagtsutyun), the main organizer of these protests around the world, they will never stop.

Why should Turkey accept something that will accept its political stance significantly, when it has documents pointing that the armenians have done exactly the same.Armenian genocide is very nastily used as a political tool.

I searched ‘Treepollyche’ on google. Nothing came up. Are you sure that such a place even exists?

Pardon my bad translation, the town you're searching for is tripolis, the capital of peleponnesus.

If Armenians had really massacred these people, they might have actually kept those lands.

They would, if it wasn't for Mustafa Kemal and his team. Thanks to our stupid nationalist Enver Pasha, the eastern anatolia was left completely defenseless when 90k of the turkish soldiers froze to death in the mountains of Allah u Akbar. Nothing was there to stop your ruscophone relatives from genociding people.

Dresden Bombings didn’t prevent Germany to recognize the Jewish Holocaust. Turkish allegations of massacres by Armenians shouldn't prevent the proper recognition of the Genocide.

Very very different issues. It wasn't the jews that bombed Dresden, David. Moreover, the germans did not start massacring the jews after they started a rebellion. A rebellion in Van was already in motion when the Ottomans decided the execution of the relocation.

I have also heard that the Turkish newspaper ‘Zaman’ propagated certain fake reports on this.

What about the various death threats various Turkish intellectuals, such as Orhan Pamuk, had to face after acknowledging that more than a million Armenians were killed in 1915?

Whatever you say David. About the death threats, Turks aren't saints. Of course there are some nationalist nutjobs who see these intellectuals as traitors. You shouldn't even mention it after what Asala did to our diplomats.

[General David]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Foru...dependence.htm

This site tells us that the massacre in Tripolis was the worst thing that happened during the Greek Revolution. 12 000 Turks were killed. The site looks like a nationalist site… If it is admitting that a massacre happened in Tripolis, then there is no problem,

A rebellion in Van was already in motion when the Ottomans decided the execution of the relocation.

According to what I have here, the Armenians of Van were already in the verge of being massacred. There were 30 000 Armenians in Van, and their numbers doubled when Armenians from surrounding villages took refuge in the city.

You shouldn't even mention it after what Asala did to our diplomats.

The only difference is that the ones who are issuing death threats this time are Turks, not Armenians.


Further discussions in the topic about the Genocide, in Fingerprints.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

In the war with Arzerbajan and the armenian inhabitants of Nagorno-Karabagh Armenians were massacered in Baku, and other places it was not just Armenians killing, but if you add up the facts Armenians were victims first and Nagorno-Karabagh was never part of Azerbajan and yes there was Armenians killing Azeris to "get reveng on the Turks" but this happened on both sides and yes both sides were wrong but Azerbajan was the instigator of the war with a group of people who had only hunting rifles and took the rest of the Armes from the Azeris, Azerbajan lost the war because many Armenians form around the world came to fight in the war as for azerbajan they used their minorities who didnt really want to fight like the Kurds. And as for the idea that russia help Armenia in the war that is absolutly false, but Armenia and Russia have always had good relations, when Yelstin said "we are gona make the Turks pay". And the sites that say there was 1 million Azeris made homless there are as much armenians made homless from baku and Nakhichevan. And as for the Azeris trying to make this war a war between islam and christianity it was wrong but it help Osama binladin fought in Karabagh, but Iran supported Armenia in the war. Well because they did not want to see a "unified Turkey" because iran has over 7 million Azeris in the northern region of the country who wanted to join Azerbajan and iran did not want to have a strong nieghbor on the north