Naval Warfare Submod

[Thorn]

Hi again.. I'm going to give this game a third (post 1.4 patch) chance and because i cant play a game without modding it here you have my "first" modification, I hope you will enjoy playing it as much as i did making it.

Before beginning I would like to give thanks to:

LtChambers and Alpaca, without their "modding tools" I could never make this work.
Darthvader for his wonderful mod of that i used for some of the phisics (turning rates) and his help in times of need.
Swiss Halberdier for allowing me to use his great naval units and his valuable tips.

Naval Warfare Submod (Version 0.1):

-Changed Range value of most naval guns (The higher the caliber the farthest they shot for every ammo)
-Increase grape ammunition for higher caliber
-Grape damage reduced to 1 (You cant sink a ship with grape)
-Increased range of chain-shot (shorter than vanila, longer than Darth's)
-Decreased accuracy and velocity of chain-shots

Version (0.2)

-Changed name to Naval Warfare Mod
-Reworked some ranges
-+25 Range to heavy guns +24lbs
-Reduced Carronade ranges (400-450)
-Reduced grape damage to 0,5
-Reduced Reload times for 6-9lbs guns

Version (0.3)

-Increased chain ammo speed from 50 to 90
-Decreased chain ammo accuracy by half
-Decreased Chain ammo damage

Version (0.4)

-Increased Sloop/Brig speed
-Brig guns 6-9lbs instead of 9-18lbs
-Sloop guns 9-12Lbs instead of 9-18lbs


Version (0.5)

-Better reload times for 6-9lbs guns
-Slower reload times for 24-32-42lbs guns

Version (0.55)

-Increased build turns for heavy ships (up to 8 turns)
-Rebalance of Campaign Movement points (almost all MP have been tweaked):
*slower ship over, 1st rate (before 78, now 50)
*Fastets ship, Steam ships (before 78, now 85)

A fresh campaign would be needed.

Version (0.6)

-Reworked crew sizes
-All ships have more crew, mainly war ships.
-Over first rate get almost 450 crew
-Galleons get also more crew than other ships of same size
-Galleys get lots of seamen too, they were used to board ships (15 men is silly to that task)
-Reworked sail damage values
-Grape does almost no damage to sail
-Round ammo does little damage
-Chain does the highest ammount of damage against sail (it now worth to be fired if you want to slower your enemies)
-All damages are caliber dependant

Version (0.7)
-Tweaked Crew sizes, it seems i have added more crew than allowed, still working on that, meanwhile crew maxedout.
-Reworked speed
*All ships have speed between 11 (Over first Rate) and 16 (Steam Ships)
*Most ships have 12-14 speed
-New acceleration system
*Now speed isnt the key factor, but maneuveravility
*Small ships get max speed sooner and so they can turn faster than big ones
*Big ships could take a while to reach max speed, but it aslo take a while to stop them (now you can maneuver against wind using their momentum)
*Now 6th rates, sloops and brigs can barely flee from 4-5th rates when they reach max speed.

-Currenty working in a new Crew and a faction specific naval balance


Version (0.8)

-Reworked Speed (min 12 max 16)
-Accuracy set to 50 to all ships (working on new system)
-Reload Skill reversed (the smaller the ship the higher to simulate less cannon to manage and so less caos during battle)
-Added French, Spanish and english crew with their own unique stats (more to come)
-Tweaked Barbary and pirate crews
-Increase reload time diference between calibers.
-Reduced gun damage by half (round shots)


+working on faction specific values (Hulls, speed, accuracy, reload rates, crew...)

Version (0.85)

-Hulls, speed, accuraccy and reload changed to be faction specific.
-Now working on factional crew for major and minor naval powers.

Version (0.9)
-Hull hit points increased by 60%
-Tweaked some crews
-Increased sail damage for chain and round shots.
-Decreased chain-shot accuracy
-Tweaked some faction crew stats
-Reduced cost for merchant, brig and sloop ships.

Version (0.95)
-Tweaked some crews
-Added a few faction crews
-Tweaked accuracy to make long range shots less accurate
-Tweaked some ships speeds

Version (0.96)
-Increased reload time diference between calibers (light a bit faster, very heavy a bit slower, mid caliber the same)
-Increased ship battle speed
-Increased hull strength +20%
-Decreased ship campaign speed (light ships will be faster than heavy ones)

Version (0.98)
-Increased reload time diference between calibers again (from 16 (lightest) to 52 (heaviest))
-Tweaked some ship's speed
-Worked out a game's bug that prevents ships to use its maximun gun range (ie 1st and over 1st rate ships having way less range than 2nd rate ships)
-Greatly Decreased rocket accuracy
-Decreased overall accuracy for all ships and increased calibration area for less deadly long range duels
-Tweaked some gun damages (mainly against sails)
-Increase number of grape shot bullets per shot
-Increase diferences between factions (changed some gun compositions, more variety and diferent ship performance for main factions)
-Added 29 new ship models from AUM mod

Version (0.98b)
-Fixed unit table to make the mod works for those having CTDs when loading the game
-Tweaked some guns
-Revised some reloading ratios

Version (0.98C)
-Fully compatible with patch 1.5
-Fully integrated AUM units
-Included AUM loc file
-Included userscript file

Version (0.98D)
-Fixed some gun issues

Version (0.98E)
-Reworked 6th rates gun composition
-Fixed the galley's issue (back to 2 turns to build them)
-Some minor tweaks

Version (0.98F)
-Fixed Late era guns
-Included new experience table to make experienced ships more valuable
-Added more faction crews (Austria, Russia, Morocco, Venice, Naples and others..)
-Changed experience thresholds according with new crew numbers on ships.

Version 0.98G
-Fixed some cost/upkeep values
-Fixed some construction time values
-Some minor tweaks

Version 0.98H
-Naval Upkeep = 20% of ship's cost
-Reviewed some Ship cost values
-Fixed Galley crews
-Reduced speed, accuracy and reload for all galleon class ships, to balance their cost/firepower values
-Reduced overall speed for all ships
-Added a non-AUM version for those who dont want or cant use AUM units

Version 0.99
-Revised some naval hulls
-Increased morale +20%
-Fixed Some crew numbers
-Increased speed of bullets (the higher the caliber the higher the speed) to make bullets have lower trajectories (less damage to sail from round shots)
-Revised campaign speeds (increased speed diference between fast and slow ships)


Version (0.99A)
-Fixed british 4th rates movement points.


Version (1.0)
-Doubled campaign movement points for all ships.
-Increased grape shot accuracy and bullets.
-Minor tweaks for some ship values.


Version (1.0A)
-Minor tweaks and fix for some ship values for the AUM version.

Feedback is wellcomed.

[DaVinci]

Sounds interesting ... will take a look into it soon. Maybe Darth will check this out, too (and adapt it).
Might be an important improvement for his naval mod part.

[ZaPPPa]

Sea Warfare Submod (Version 0.1, based on DartMod 2.2):

-Changed Range value of most naval guns (The higher the caliber the farthest they shot for every ammo)

Hmm.. I could go either way... It depends on how much you increased it by (10%, 50% ?)

-Increase grape ammunition for higher caliber

Disagree. Grape is already overpowered in my opinion. One close range broadside can put almost any ship into direct submission.

-Grape damage reduced to 1 (You cant sink a ship with grape)

Agreed. I also don't like the way you can take out cannon with grape. Grape should devastate crew, but not solid iron cannons or solid oak hulls.

-Increased range of chain-shot (shorter than vanila, longer than Darth's)

Chain shot is an aerodynamic monster.. I actually think the range is still too long in Darth's version. (My opinion is pure feel, not supported by research)

-Decreased accuracy and velocity of chain-shots

Agree.. Accuracy must decrease significantly with distance.

[Thorn]

Hmm.. I could go either way... It depends on how much you increased it by (10%, 50% ?)

I have increased ranges by 50-75, but you should know that doesnt mean you can use those ranges, "operational" range of any ship is based on the average range of all guns.

Disagree. Grape is already overpowered in my opinion. One close range broadside can put almost any ship into direct submission.

Agreed. I also don't like the way you can take out cannon with grape. Grape should devastate crew, but not solid iron cannons or solid oak hulls.

Both changes go together, now grape shots kill more crew, but make less hull damage

Chain shot is an aerodynamic monster.. I actually think the range is still too long in Darth's version. (My opinion is pure feel, not supported by research)

Agree.. Accuracy must decrease significantly with distance.

From my experience, short ranges make chain-shots useless, i would prefer to fire grape at close distance instead of chain, on the other hand i dont want to overpower it, so now you can fire at "long" distances but with poor accuracy.

[Tharoth]

Interesting idea's Naimad. I agree with increasing the range of chain-shot, since it's useless up close (It's my experience that chainshot will miss alot at closer ranges, too close for the cannons to tilt I guess) also decreasing the damage of grapeshot is excellent.

I've added your mod to the sub-mod list

[ZaPPPa]

I have increased ranges by 50-75, but you should know that doesnt mean you can use those ranges, "operational" range of any ship is based on the average range of all guns.

How is accuracy over these increased distances?

For example:

Vanilla values: 50% accuracy over 100 distance units (example values)
New values: 75% accuracy over 100 distance units and 50% accuracy over 150 distance units?
OR 50% accuracy over 100 distance units and 33.3% accuracy over 150 distance units?

Both changes go together, now grape shots kill more crew, but make less hull damage

Ok.. Make sure to keep a close eye on morale with grape shot tweaks. Maybe grape accuracy should be reduced so ships have to get awfully close to use it (great reward at great risk)

From my experience, short ranges make chain-shots useless, i would prefer to fire grape at close distance instead of chain, on the other hand i dont want to overpower it, so now you can fire at "long" distances but with poor accuracy.

I get what you're saying, but I think the preference of using grape over chain is because grape range is too high and grape is/was overpowered compared to chain.

With this said, your changes sound interesting. I'll download the latest tonight and try it out.

PS. I had an awesome battle yesterday between a 6th rate, fluyt, brig, sloop, sloop versus two galleons and a weakened brig. Lost my 6th rate and brig, but beat the two galleons into submission after a long battle (both captured). 6th rate took the brunt of the galleon firepower, while the brig and fluyt pummeled them from the stern whenever possible. The sloops were hovering around like vultures taking potshots from a distance.. Battle must've lasted for more than 30 minutes. I think Darth is pretty spot on with speeds and turn rates.. A fluyt, though ridiculously overgunned compared to history, is a slow lumbering beast compared to vanilla, while sloops can zip through enemy lines and stay in blind spots rather easily.

[DaVinci]

Naimad, i checked your seafare mod out a bit - so far i could experience it's a welcomed change of the stats.

While i think the sloop is slight overpowered, i reduced them a bit in accuracy at least (down to 60). Also i wonder what you did with the corronade frigates, they have no a range of 750 for round shot? I reduced them to what is quite realistic (400), also i shortened the grape/chain distances for them, after all their canons are made for short distances.

However, i would like to ask you for permission to use your changes in my Darth submod (as tsv implementation)?

PS. I had an awesome battle yesterday between a 6th rate, fluyt, brig, sloop, sloop versus two galleons and a weakened brig. Lost my 6th rate and brig, but beat the two galleons into submission after a long battle (both captured). 6th rate took the brunt of the galleon firepower, while the brig and fluyt pummeled them from the stern whenever possible. The sloops were hovering around like vultures taking potshots from a distance.. Battle must've lasted for more than 30 minutes. I think Darth is pretty spot on with speeds and turn rates.. A fluyt, though ridiculously overgunned compared to history, is a slow lumbering beast compared to vanilla, while sloops can zip through enemy lines and stay in blind spots rather easily.

Well, Darth did a freakin' great job on the naval combat. I actually loose seabattles in 1:1 situations now since his v2.2, the AI acts here pretty smart

[Thorn]

Naimad, i checked your seafare mod out a bit - so far i could experience it's a welcomed change of the stats.

While i think the sloop is slight overpowered, i reduced them a bit in accuracy at least (down to 60). Also i wonder what you did with the corronade frigates, they have no a range of 750 for round shot? I reduced them to what is quite realistic (400), also i shortened the grape/chain distances for them, after all their canons are made for short distances.

However, i would like to ask you for permission to use your changes in my Darth submod (as tsv implementation)?

This is a first approach, i plan to rework some reload times and accuraccy values.

I'm aslo rethinking about carronade frigates, i think i gave them less range in my previous modification.

I still need to test some things, but i probably reduce their range.

Sure you can use them.

[Thorn]

How is accuracy over these increased distances?

For example:

Vanilla values: 50% accuracy over 100 distance units (example values)
New values: 75% accuracy over 100 distance units and 50% accuracy over 150 distance units?
OR 50% accuracy over 100 distance units and 33.3% accuracy over 150 distance units?

Right now accuracy reamains the same as DartMod.

I need to test some battles before changing anything else.

[DaVinci]

Thanks Naimad. I'll take care of your updates, too. I would change only very slightly what Darth did as base, because imo. the AI handles the naval combat pretty smart since his 2.1/2.2 build - not that we destroy his excellent work

[Thorn]

Thanks Naimad. I'll take care of your updates, too. I would change only very slightly what Darth did as base, because imo. the AI handles the naval combat pretty smart since his 2.1/2.2 build - not that we destroy his excellent work

3 Months ago i did an Artillery Submod for DarthMod, it includes new balance for all guns (land and naval) some of the changes were

-Diferent accuracy levels by ammo
-Diferent ranges by caliber
-Diferent reload times aslo by caliber

Now than i'm trying to play this game again i'm tweaking those values once more, mainly nava,l which i think should have more "variety"

At the current stage the diference between ships are cannon numbers, speed and hull strength, with these changes there are new diferences Range, Ammunition and later Reload times, what i want to achieve is a "realistic" naval gunnery system when a 1st Rate ship should be able to fire its big cannons before any other small ship could be at firing range to return fire.

Although you should know, as i said before, that ship's firing range is based on the average of all guns.

[JaM]

Hi,

I have few suggestion for naval submod:

First thing - Sloups, Brigs and other small ships should not have long 18pdrs... those guns were even heavier than 32pdr guns used on Ships of the line, there is no way there would be enough of space on such a small ships. Instead, small ships should be armed with 6-9pdrs. (in late 18.century those ships started to use 18pdr carronades but those guns were much lighter, had shorter range and most importantly were not available in early 1700...)

Fluyt should only have 6-9pdr guns only, again, Fluyt was 300-400t ship, it was just too small to be able to have heavier guns on board. Same is true for Galleon and Race Galleon - those ships used demicannons or demiculverins, so again nothing heavier than 12 pdr. From construction point of view - it was just not possible to place heavy guns to those high hull superstructures.

Race Galleon model is not a Race galleon at all. Its model looks more like standard 17.century galleon (it has 4 masts for example...) My suggestion is to rename it to Galleon. (it could be also a strongest pirate ship - pirates only used small vessels, even blackbeard's Queen Anne Revenge was just 300t ship armed with small 6-9pdr guns)

Current Galleon model looks more like early ship of the line used in late 17.century - I suggest to rename it to Ship of the line (unrated) and give it to all major naval countries as a strongest early game vessel (and remove it from Pirates...) ofcourse trading ability should be removed.


regarding ships of the line and Frigates - only UK used rating system. Other countries differentiated their ships by the number of guns. So instead of the French First rate ship of the line name should be 100 gun Ship of the line... etc

Another thing are Frigates. Current 6-rate Frigate is just too big for a 6-rate. It is more comparable to 5-rate Frigate - another thing is it is a ship available at the begining of the game - at that time, there were only single decker frigates. Double deckers like current 5-rate appeared in the end of 18.century.
Current carronade Frigate coud be rearmed with 9dprs and renamed to 6-rate instead (it has the proper number of guns for 6-rate)
Therefore i would suggest to rename current 5-rate to 4-rate ship of the line (50/48 gun Ship of the line for other nations) - it would really nicelly simulate the most used class of ships of the line in the early 18.century. Current 4-rate could stay as it is.
3-rate ships should be the the strongest buildable ship for minor nation - no small nation buildt any larger vessels than 74.gun 3rate (For example Denmark and Netherlands buildt only 60 gun ships, because larger vessels would have problems in shallow waters - Also England used its 4-rates primarilly for service in Baltic)

1-2 rates should be limited in numbers. No nation buildt more than few.


And finally, ship design and armament - British Line ships used combination of 32/18/9 pdrs for 2nd and 3rates. later upgraded to 32/18/12pdrs. French used heavier combination of 38/24/9pdrs.
Spain at the other side used lighter guns, in the begining - 24/18/9, but later they started also using 38/18/9pdrs or 38/24/9. ( to simulate 38 gun i suggest use current 42pdr and reduce its values to match 38 pdr. or create new 38pdr...)

24/18/9 combination was also used on American those few buildt 3-rates.

4-rate 60gun ships used combination of 24/9/6, later upgraded to 24/12/9.
50gun ships used 18/9/6 or 24/9/6pdr combination.

So, we could give normal variant ship first gun option (let say 24/9/6) and Admiral variant later option (24/12/9)

Frigates were mostly armed with one type of guns - for example France rated their frigates by cannon type to 9pdr Frigate, 12 pdr Frigate, 18 pdr Frigate and 24pdr Frigate.

Real Carronade Frigates were heavy double decker Frigates with lower gun deck armed with heavy 18 or 24 pdrs and upper gundeck armed with 18-32pdr carronades. my suggestion is to use current 5 -rate model and create a new carronade Frigate instead. Another option would be to rearm current 4-rate Frigate with carronades on upper deck and make it available only after carronades are researcehd.


Last thing is durability of ships - Overally Brittish ships were structurally very strong, capable of recieving heavy beating, their resistance should be highest. French ships at the other side, were often overarmed, and structurally weak - most of captured French ships therefore had to be undergunned.. Therefore French ships should have lowest structural strenght in the class.
Spanish ships were considered one of the best designs buildt. They were undergunned, but structurally very strong (comparable to British), very stable and fast. (they should be fastest in the class)


Let me know what you think about those suggestions.

[Thorn]

@Jam

What you propose is a total rework not only of the naval battle system but aslo naval balance and units. I think that is much more than i could achieve right now.

Maybe if CA (or any modder) manages to make this game playable, then i could find the way to try such modding goals.

I like your proposals, most of them sounds not only good but realistic.

I would like to make ships more faction-specific and aslo change gun composition to give the game another feeling, right now chosing one faction or another hasnt a real impact in gameplay.

Abou Galleons, they were comonly used by Castilla since 1500, mainly as transport ships (armoured transports) to bring america's gold to Europe, so i think they should stay at least for Spain and Portugal.

I agree small ships need rework, right now brigs and sloops are almost useles, too few guns and high reload rates because of their caliber, smaller guns will give them better firing rates.

About gun composition/number of some ships of the line you should know that they are fixed to the models, right now i can only change the caliber. I dont know how to change gun positions/numbers (if posible)

Thanks for your ideas and research about naval combat

BTW Mod updated to 0.2 version.

[JaM]

only thing that cant be changed is the gun numbers and possition. you can easilly alter types of guns. It is not hardcoded.

[Thorn]

only thing that cant be changed is the gun numbers and possition. you can easilly alter types of guns. It is not hardcoded.

Sure, I had been playing with gun types long time ago, gun positions and numbers must be attached to models..

[Thorn]

New version available

[Thorn]

New version available

[Thorn]

Another update available.

[Thorn]

And another one.

[Thorn]

one more