Empire Realism | Feedback + General Discussion (until incl. 3.7, defunct thread)

[Mjarr]

All ranges in 3.7 are scaled to same scale as everything. Actual game scale is 4:1, which means 4m in reality are represented by 1m in game. Or, 50 range in game represents 200m in reality. 800 men in reality are represented by 200 men in game.


Thing is all ranges are scaled. For example, 12 pdr artillery had maximum range with max allowed elevation about 1800m, which is represented by 450 in game. So, actual musket range has to be correctly portrayed, otherwise other things would not work properly - Artillery has to have exact range advantage, especially with heavy canister (range 100-150 based on gun type)

I am aware the ranges and everything are scaled in one way or another, but the infantry range scaling could use very small tweaking. Artillery and naval units works far better with their respective scales IMHO.

With skirmishers, its different. Quite overlooked fact with all musketry engagement is loss of direct sight after first few salvos. Smoke would obscure sight, so any sort of accurate fire after first salvo would be not possible, while long exchanges would be mostly just waste of powder. Anyway, Skirmishers still have some advantages on their side - they have much smaller hitbox size, so are much harder to hit by enemy fire than line infantry. Another benefit is much higher accuracy for that first few shots they are able to fire, but then they get accuracy reductions as everybody else would. Skirmishers have much faster movement rate, standard line infantry has practically no chance to catch them.. And there is spotting and hiding ability. Lights and Skirmishers can hide at broken terrain so they are hard to spot, and even if they start firing they wont give up their position until you come closer. They also detect enemy units at longer ranges, so they are much better at spotting ambushes than any other unit in game.

It's a shame there are no real line of sight rules in ETW or NTW (or even in STW2 for that regard), but indeed I had not looked that much into the pack files themselves for distinguishion between skirmishers and regular infantry. I think the problem mostly is since AI is always AI, certain things cannot are always present and the potentially exploitative nature of light infantry is one of them. This could easily be remedied with a personal houserule\self-imposed handicap not to exploit certain things, of course.

Skirmishers were never a major part of armies, nor was the Light infantry. Most of European Armies didnt used them at all, or started with them quite late. They are not necessary if you dont have a place for them, anyway if you know how to use them properly, you will find they are quite superior to other units, i even find them slightly overpowered as it is quite easy to set up ambushes and skirmish the hell out of advancing enemy infantry. Plus, if they dont have any cavalry, they cant do anything about it as skirmisher are able to outpace them no matter what.

True, but then again I would personally note this is another thing that simply does not scale that well.

And regarding accuracy, there is a huge difference between accuracy of first salvo vs others. Every unit will lose cohesion rapidly with firing, which reduces accuracy down to first 25% until it drops to 5% This decrease simulates real situation of 18.century musketry, as many musket malfunctioned, there was smoke, noise disorder, loss of control.. It was well known fact, that no matter what experience unit had, it could only deliver just about 3 controlled salvos until fire dropped to uncontrollable firing.. less experienced units even less.

And last reason is speed of ETW animations - they are actually not build for 1:1 time scale. most of movement speed animations are much faster than reality, which means it is impossible to set correct speeds, because they will be faster than firing animations. I have spend a lot of time finding out what time scale would fit best, and 2:1 is the scale.. (30s in-game stats represents 60 seconds in reality) Therefore instead of adjusting movement speeds to slower rate of fire, which would result with slow motion movement issues with infantry units, i decided to increase rate of fire to get the exact amount of salvos as they would be able to deliver to enemy if it had to move same distance.

I did notice there was a subtle difference in first volleys compared to the subsequent volleys the further the campaigns progressed, but unfortunately given the AI had funny tendency to often fire at extreme ranges (side effect of hardcoded AI issues?) and simply tire its own men at the drop of the hat before I could just counterattack, using well timed salvos had only real practical meaning against cavalry. Unless of course you managed to flank some unit with another unit while the AI refused to react.

Now don't get me wrong, although that rant probably bit more hostile than I intended, otherwise I am enjoying the other aspects of the mod and if all else fails I could easily pop up packfile manager for small personal tweaking. On the other hand I simply find that ER's abstraction(s) is simply barely within the AI's capabilities to handle, and hence when it comes to infantry abstractions I would be in favour of small tweaks in one way or another.

[El Chupanibre]

I like your new militia system. Drawing men away from their fields for a long time would be an economic drain, and militia should be a temporary force.

So do republics have easier access to militias and conscripts? I think for republics they should get much easier access to low level volunteers and militias but fewer elite units like grenadiers and guards. Also in the later era was when conscription became a primary way to getting men in uniform.

also -- should light infantry be in such a tight packed rank and file formation? Should they be a big more spread out since Light Infantry Doctrine is removed?

Oh one more thing -- JAM have you checked out some of the Napoleon mods that try to use a "fog of war" thing? I think what they do is give all units the ability to hide or something. I just wish there was a way to reduce sight ranges of units, so you'd have to actually use light cav to scout the enemy.

[JaM]

Mjarr: I have build standard battle mechanics to represent average tactics used in the 18.century. And while many people think it was era of very short ranges, where units fired at each other from few meters, opposite is true. Short range salvos were quite rare, and most of the musketry engagements did happened at maximum ranges, or even above maximum range, which resulted in complete waste of powder..

Its quite funny btw, because people put together two contradicting things - short range musketry and inaccuracy, thing is, short range salvos were quite effective, problem was morale of the unit - soldiers refused to walk close and being shot at by enemy for long.. So most of the time, they routed, or just delivered salvos from distance. 160 yards was average distance at which units engaged each other, and at that distance effect of musket fire was not that high, and was decreasing with every salvo due to disorder,misfires and smoke.

If i made muskets having longer range, i would have to decrease accuracy more, because accuracy beyond 200 yards was very bad, and this would make AI even worse. Only way would be to go with different scale, like for example 3:1, but that would also increase range to artillery, which will reduce differences between light and heavy guns considerably (right now heavy guns have good range advantage(450-500), are more accurate, but have slow rate of fire, while light guns are short ranged (300-350), less accurate,but about 1.5-2x higher rate of fire. With 3:1 scale 12pdr would have to have range 600, while 6pdr would have 400, and while that doesn't sounds bad on paper, it makes things problematic due to short battle maps.. range 600 means heavy artillery can fire across the whole map, and will result in very passive AI.

[JaM]

El Chupanibre: Republican units are different. They are mass conscription units, able to recruit faster (1 turn recruitment time instead of 2-3 for Line), while they cost and upkeep is similar to Line units. Their only disadvantage is they start without any experience/training. So, Republic can field armies faster, but they will be lower quality.

Regarding Light Infantry, there are two types - Light Infantry and Skirmishers. Normal Light Infantry is similar to normal Line Infantry, but they are better shooters, and are able to spot enemy at greater distances in bad terrain (thanks to skirmish screen such unit normally deployed - but this is not possible in ETW engine, so i at least gave them spotting benefits as if they had them deployed) Light Infantry is fighting in Battalion size units, and you will notice their higher firepower (while some units even have Light Infantry Behavior formation available)
Skirmishers are different. Those are always in smaller unit, and wider scattered formation. They are able to hide almost anywhere, and are hard to spot, while have best spotting abilities so are ideal as scouts. Their weapons are also very accurate, so if you deploy them somewhere they have good cover (for example tree line), they can out-shoot even large units without problems. All Skirmishers have light infantry behavior function available without any research needed, so it is available to all rangers or Native scouts in North America from the beginning.



Regarding FOW system, i must say i'm considering it, and practically over last few releases i'm moving slowly to that direction. For example in 3.7 spotting distances are much shorter than before. FoW system requires all units to be allowed to hide while walking and hide anywhere. Only problem is, there isnt spotting distance specified for spotting unit in normal terrain. Only spotting distances are for Long Grass,Scrub and Trees. So I'm afraid, all units would have same spotting distance in the open outside of those three types of terrain. Anyway i plan to run some tests to see how it works.

[Gorhaax]

Other then that first battle where the Dutch got stuck, everything has been smooth sailing.

I was able to destroy the Dutch by taking their capital, but I never realized how much they would hate me taking over . Thankfully the British sent their entire land army take over North America, otherwise fighting them over Paris and the Netherlands would be hard. The other unintended consequence of destroying the dutch is that all there territories have become Pirates, who have decided to constantly raid my SA colonies.

Both the Iroqious and British are slowly destroying my forces in NA.

I also had a good chuckle when Quebec decided to seperate.

[JaM]

Currently working on Complete release, anyway, because of many people also using MP, i decided to adjust unit sizes so you wont need to adjust unit multiplier anymore.

[El Chupanibre]

Still, should light infantry units (not skirmishers) still be the same size as a line unit? I was under the impression that even up to the Napoleonic wars light infantry units were smaller company sized units attached to a regiment, who would break off and go ahead of the line to probe the enemy or harass then withdraw and join the line once things got too hot.

[JaM]

THere were also independent Light Regiments and Battalions, British formed some for North America (Gen. Howe), While France used them even sooner, practically their Line infantry in Canada was a prototype for later Light Infantry units. Austrian Grenzers were also more like Light Infantry (instead of Skirmishers)..

Light Infantry companies you are mentioning are integral part of every battalion,but because they would be very small units (with current scale 20men..) they are not portrayed separately. Instead, all late Line Infantry battalions have better spotting to simulate having lights deployed in skirmish formation in front of battalion..

[Rick]

JaM, Just a thought, but if you intend adding the 40 units you may wish to take a look at the faction economies and the cost and upkeep of the units. The way you mod is structured now, I don't think a faction can afford a large army.

[El Chupanibre]

Is it possible to increase the rallying power of generals? It just doesn't seem like they're very good at it.

[Mjarr]

Mjarr: I have build standard battle mechanics to represent average tactics used in the 18.century. And while many people think it was era of very short ranges, where units fired at each other from few meters, opposite is true. Short range salvos were quite rare, and most of the musketry engagements did happened at maximum ranges, or even above maximum range, which resulted in complete waste of powder..

Its quite funny btw, because people put together two contradicting things - short range musketry and inaccuracy, thing is, short range salvos were quite effective, problem was morale of the unit - soldiers refused to walk close and being shot at by enemy for long.. So most of the time, they routed, or just delivered salvos from distance. 160 yards was average distance at which units engaged each other, and at that distance effect of musket fire was not that high, and was decreasing with every salvo due to disorder,misfires and smoke.

If i made muskets having longer range, i would have to decrease accuracy more, because accuracy beyond 200 yards was very bad, and this would make AI even worse. Only way would be to go with different scale, like for example 3:1, but that would also increase range to artillery, which will reduce differences between light and heavy guns considerably (right now heavy guns have good range advantage(450-500), are more accurate, but have slow rate of fire, while light guns are short ranged (300-350), less accurate,but about 1.5-2x higher rate of fire. With 3:1 scale 12pdr would have to have range 600, while 6pdr would have 400, and while that doesn't sounds bad on paper, it makes things problematic due to short battle maps.. range 600 means heavy artillery can fire across the whole map, and will result in very passive AI.

Arguably part of the problem is simply getting used to the exact scale that was not really mentioned anywhere in the mod FAQs or readmes until you brought it up here, and it definitely clears up some confusion. Perhaps it's just that since it's way too easy to park line infantry or two (or even light infantry in loose formation), let AI waste some ammo and exhaust their troops with minimal casualties taken before smashing their line by planned column charge and cutting fleeing units with cavalry. I seriously applaud ER does take pretty good stance on modeling unit morale and cohesion when it comes to actually engaging enemy up close, but based on my experience in two campaigns H\H settings, while AI's brainfarts are always to be expected and it cannot be really compared against human player or common human behaviour at times, when around 3\4 of the time AI simply engages at the edge of their range with fairly poor efficiency for obvious reasons, I find it somewhat silly.

Although to add to your accuracy vs scale part, part of the reason why one could easily take bit of functional license to some extent is whether to read certain parts too literally or not, as due the lack of any actual range estimation and its real impact to precision and accuracy as well - and quite a few other things that are not present in ETW\NTW\TW games altogether that would be quite necessary (line of sight and whatnot, just to name a few) - my main point was to make muskets slightly more accurate overall at range, if only to give AI a better advantage without turning the battle difficulty slider to the max. The reload complaint earlier on is bit moot at this point given how you've mentioned the scale used though.

Oh and edit: I do not necessarily see it as a contradiction of accuracy, since I am aware it's more than possible to hit the side of a barn at a distance even with a matchlock, and given such firefights are more or less about shooting at a side of a barn that shoot backs rather than trying to snipe an individual, it boils down to bit poor choice of wording at worst.

[JaM]

Rick: Current version already has some tweaks to economy to allow more units, but its only visible with build up provinces. Plus, every farm reduces regional unit cost by 1-2-4% (based on level), so huge provinces with lots of farms are ideal for unit recruitment - Main France province is one of them - for artillery cost reductions, you have to build ironworks, while lumber mills reduce costs of ships (as well as admiralty buildings)

El Chupanibre: Rally is not present in ETW, its NTW feature only. Anyway i gave generals inspire trait instead, while removing it from all units, so Generals are improving morale of men nearby. It works differently than rally, because if unit is routed, inspire bonus wont help, but of course inspired unit is much harder to get routed... I will increase the inspire bonus for them in full release.

[JaM]

Mjarr: i'm still searching for ideal game scale, so i might change in to something else , i was considering 3:1 scale before, it lost over to 4:1 scale just by a small margin.. Anyway i might return to it later.

Personally i like fast paced game, where you have to act fast, which is quite a contrast to other mods that slow things down and give player more time to eliminate incompetent AI. I apologize for not completing detailed FAQ for this new release, but to my defend, i still work on few things for full release that i found lacking in current version, while transforming mod files to be more user friendly for all. I'm still struggling with certain CAI behaviors i try to eliminate (Austrian AI often sends whole army to Venetia and does nothing while Prusians and Poland captures all their provinces without a fight.. or Ottomans building tons of small stacks in their provinces which practically kills the turn time as it takes several minutes they complete their turn..) and i spend a lot of time testing to get rid of those (only partially successful so far).

[Rick]

Will you be adding the 40 unit per army mod with yours anytime soon?

[JaM]

you can use that mod together with ER with no issues even now.. but i plan to ask for permission to use it in next version

[Filmor]

Speaking about economy I think that a little boost wouldn't be a harm. Another thing is strange development levels of industry buildings: usually high level buildings are earning less than their precedessors! And even if there is some improvement it is very small(with double industrialization bonus as a present). About this "industrialization" it is also eating your improvement plans and that doesen't look very real. Btw why the heck these people hated industry so much?

Apart from that nice mod you have here. AI is of course not a smarty one but it never(and nowhere)is. I like the cavalry role and it's efficiency. I also tried a lot with it's stats and KV's but it seems that on this engine not much can be done. Nice effects of charging on prepared infantry and charging on their backs.

[JaM]

hmm, last time i checked, industry bonuses are double for each tier, but i need to verify, maybe i forgot apply correct table or something..

[leonn]

so,to be clear does the latest version of this mod make the units smaller in number?
i must admit im not that keen on smaller numbers on the screen,or can they be scaled up in sp as thats all im interested in.

sorry as this must be a very obvious question to the tech minded such as yourself! cheers

[JaM]

depends what you mean by smaller in number. Base unit is now a Battalion of 200 men, not Regiment which previously had 320 men. Anyway, everything is scaled, so unique units are more numerous (one regiment = 2-3 battalions). So, with full stack you might only have 19+1 battalions, but you can increase that by applying the 30-40 units mod to ER. In the future i plan to include this in full release. I made this decision to ease on AI movements, while slightly improve tactical gameplay - battalion was the smallest tactical unit in battles (while cavalry had Squadrons), and this allows player to use regiments historically (with single battalion in front, while remaining are in reserve,etc...)

[leonn]

wow that was quick!
i must admit ive been dithering about what mod to put on but i still end up with this one as it changes gameplay,not just add loads of units.
although having said that,i think adding the aum mod and the 30-40 unit mod will top this off nicely.

im thinking as im a technical luddite,would i be wiser to wait for your full release?its hard enough for a bananna fingered idiot like me to install things let alone uninstall and all that!
anyway thanks for your help. cheers