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Thread: BROKEN CRESCENT: Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

  1. #21
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    I am listing these stats here as reference and comparison. This is not meant for discussion of the stats. It's list of major heavy cavs in the game with 2.02 stats.

    Templar Knights
    Charge: 16
    Primary attack: Lance - 12
    Secondary Attack: Sword - 8
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 9 - 17 - 4 (30)
    Positive Mount Effect: horse +2

    Teutonic Knights
    Charge: 17
    Primary attack: Lance - 12
    Secondary Attack: Axe - 8 (AP)
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 7 - 16 - 4 (27)
    Positive Mount Effect: horse +2

    Askari Nobles
    Charge: 16
    Primary attack: Lance - 11
    Secondary Attack: Sword - 8 (the EDU in BC2 is incorrect....will be fixed in next patch)
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 8 - 15 - 4 (27)
    Positive Mount Effect: none

    Elite Ghulam Lancers
    Charge: 14
    Primary attack: Lance - 10
    Secondary Attack: Mace - 6 (AP)
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 10 - 15 - 4 (29)
    Positive Mount Effect: none

    Mounted Jihad Ghulam (Emir's Ghulam)
    Charge: 14
    Primary attack: Lance - 11
    Secondary Attack: Sword - 8
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 7 - 15 - 4 (26)
    Positive Mount Effect: none

    Kwarzem Cataphract Lancers
    Charge: 14
    Primary attack: Lance - 11
    Secondary Attack: Sword - 8
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 10 - 18 - 4 (32)
    Positive Mount Effect: horse +2

    ERE Cataphracts
    Charge: 14
    Primary attack: Javelin - 12
    Secondary Attack: Spear - 11 (spear_bonus_4)
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 12 - 17 - 1 (30)
    Positive Mount Effect: horse +2

    ERE Proniarioi
    Charge: 14
    Primary attack: Lance - 10
    Secondary Attack: Mace - 6 (AP)
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 10 - 16 - 4 (30)
    Positive Mount Effect: N/A

    Norman Knights
    Charge: 17
    Primary attack: Lance - 12
    Secondary Attack: Sword - 8
    Armor-Defense-Shield: 9 - 16 - 4 (29)
    Positive Mount Effect: N/A

  2. #22
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Verry intersting topic, I like this system, but I guess the number of HA too much, maybe a litle bit reduce would be better for battle. Anyway, this is my opinion.
    The first question would be if we have 2 units, the atack points of one is equal with defense of another, and the defence of first is equal with atack of the second, who will be the winner (everything else is the same : stat, mental, moral, model) ?
    The second question, in melee battle, is better to have defence skill more than armour or shield ?
    Extremly good job!!!!!
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  3. #23
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by predadan79 View Post
    Verry intersting topic, I like this system, but I guess the number of HA too much, maybe a litle bit reduce would be better for battle.
    what number?
    The first question would be if we have 2 units, the atack points of one is equal with defense of another, and the defence of first is equal with atack of the second, who will be the winner (everything else is the same : stat, mental, moral, model) ?
    that would entirely depend on what are the values of attack and defense of the first unit.
    The second question, in melee battle, is better to have defence skill more than armour or shield ?
    Extremly good job!!!!!
    The game uses Total Defense value which is sum of all three. My formal opinion is that it doesn't matter, as long your sum remains the same.

  4. #24
    Achilla's Avatar The Iron General
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Strelac View Post
    that would entirely depend on what are the values of attack and defense of the first unit.
    Over my tests more attack was most of the time better than more defense, especially over AP. I think I read somewhere that shield's melee value was cut to half by AP, too.
    Man is but a shadow of his former self, encased in feverish delusions of grandeur.
    Ignorance is your shield, knowledge is your weapon.
    Heart without reason is stupid, reason without heart is blind.


  5. #25
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Its possible. I think CA combines "armor" + "shield" into total armor wear, and AP takes off half of that value, in which case Total Defense = (armor+shield)/2+defense where opponents is attacking with AP weapon....or, they could have totally cut the corners and made Total Defense / 2 when attacked with AP weapon.

  6. #26
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    I like all the topics where is describe how works the mechanical of battle (hit points, damage, casualties, so on).
    The number of HA is for normal setting 75 people, spearmen have 112, heavy cavalries 36. I'd try instead to make the number of HA 65, to keep some advantiges over the rest of troops .
    I realized that the beduin camel archer are so good, really good.
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  7. #27
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Achilla View Post
    Over my tests more attack was most of the time better than more defense, especially over AP. I think I read somewhere that shield's melee value was cut to half by AP, too.
    Yes, this coul be possible, but all over forum is written that only armour is cut to half by the AP weapon, so the majority of people thinks this.

    Anyway, I saw that some troops have the shield wearing on back and normally, what I understood is shield calculates on in front, right and, altrough is not not normal, left side of body - for these troops is the same as CA and only the appearance is different or is another way ??
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  8. #28
    Achilla's Avatar The Iron General
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by predadan79 View Post
    Yes, this coul be possible, but all over forum is written that only armour is cut to half by the AP weapon, so the majority of people thinks this.

    Anyway, I saw that some troops have the shield wearing on back and normally, what I understood is shield calculates on in front, right and, altrough is not not normal, left side of body - for these troops is the same as CA and only the appearance is different or is another way ??
    You have to take into account what a shield actually is in latest game patches, and what the EDU says contrary to the unit card.

    So, we have an X unit with shield value of 8 in unit card. Well, most probably it has 8 defense bonus against melee and 6 defense bonus against ranged weaponry, such as javelins, arrows and bolts (siege engines don't apply).

    Now, once we know this, in melee - 8 defense bonus is always applied (from front, back and sides), so it's a good thing to have for a unit which is supposed to hold out longer in melee.

    With missiles it gets tricky, though - that actual defense against them, 6 in this case (NOT listed in the unit card!), works only from front - missiles shot from sides (left, right) cut down the shield defense against missiles by half, so it's 3. Moreover, when shot at back, it's completely ignored (means shield doesn't help you at all).

    Now, a stupid question, why the defense is cut to half on sides, if it should give full or almost full defense on one side and no defense at all on the other one? Most probably due to balancing issues, where in multiplayer match you would simply arrange your entire army formation knowing the fact in what direction the shields are facing, to minimize your losses without any risk and maximise enemy casualties when they decide to strike your less defended side. With a more 'uniform' shield fashion, you can attack from either sides with moderate effect and not only from back, so it's actually not a stupid decision gameplay- and balance-wise.

    Now, you could ask yourself 'why is it that it's not listed anywhere in the game'? Well, you see, it's similar with AP attribute - just because it says 'in-game' that it does X thing, doesn't necessarily mean it reflects truth. What the description basically says, is encourage people to throw their AP troops against heavily armoured troops to their best effect, what it doesn't say is explain how things really work from inside - a vital information for any modder trying to achieve specific balance in his mod.

    My suspicion is, that either it cuts to half melee shield value and armour OR cuts down entire defense to half (even if it's not according to in-game description, but you never know) OR follows a completely different lethality formula, which automatically makes AP weapons deadly even with very low attack, and give them higher increase in overall performance with each attack point (most probably 1 AP attack point = 2.5/3 NON-AP attack points, versus a foe with X total defense, let's say 15).

    If not the fact it's hard to proof due to high randomness in fights even with equal units facing each other WITHOUT captain interfering, it would be more obvious and common knowledge. Now, one can wonder

    Sometimes I just don't get it why CA don't just write a post or two here explaining how few things worked in patch X, Y and Z and how they work now.
    Man is but a shadow of his former self, encased in feverish delusions of grandeur.
    Ignorance is your shield, knowledge is your weapon.
    Heart without reason is stupid, reason without heart is blind.


  9. #29
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    It is good to have some truly answers and I'm sorry that CA haven't released us a guide to better understand the mechanical like I saw in the old games Heroes Might and Magic 3. So it is a real guess to foresee the result of any battle. Yes, I understood that the various conditions influence (like moral, terrain, heat, fatigue, mass), but is so chaotic and you need a lot o game playing experience. On the side it is so impressive, random situations dues at different management, but on the other side could be unhappy and irksome.
    What I wish to see in the unit cards is more attributes for everybody (something like : resistence to heat, impetous, if secondary weapon has some special or different as Imperial Gurad of ERE) for the common player to enjoy and to better know. I don't know if it is so hard to do it, but I know that it merits.
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  10. #30
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Just few weeks ago, I watched the documentary about ancient war technology, and what do you know, one of the segments was about RTW BI, and CA UK team explained how they derive weapon damages and armor. The manager tried to describe it as if CA actually does ballistic testing of different weapons and how they impact different armor type, but really only thing he had was a huge spreadsheet which seems like they fill out based on assumption.
    So basically, its nothing different form what we do for BC, or any other moders. That being said, I don't think its important to even know how the actual algorithm works, as long as all attributes used in calculation are known.
    Its more important that all attributes are approached consistently across all units.

  11. #31
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    No maybe you misunderstood my wish, I really want to see more unit's atributes in the info cards for better choice of all. I think this will get more clarity to better use of the troops (if I carry a battle in dessert, I wish to know which of my units are more proper to do it in eventuality if I have several units to choose between them; if I have HA, I wish to know if they are good enough in melee or how ammunition do they have).
    Another question if in visual appearence some units have the shield carry on back. Does this change anything in battle mechanical ? I mean it is the same if do they have their shield normally?
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  12. #32
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    I was not replaying to you.

    Having those extra info is not possible under the current circumstance.

    The physical appearance of the unit has no dynamic impact on update of the stats. If the unit is assigned "shield" attribute value, then the value is effective whether unit is carrying shield forward or on their back.

  13. #33
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Yes, I understood, I had the idea that if a unit carry on the shield on back could change the damage from front abd due at a better defense if that unit is atacked behinde. Thanks a lot!
    Regarding another answer I'm not so content because in the description of unitis (Royal ghulam are elite of...) it is poassible to add, I think, more atributes like : "they have 30 arows, they resist to cold, they have mace with armour piercing", and so on... This would improve the knwledge of each unit and It will be easyier to choose the better unit.
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  14. #34
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Maybe I didn't understand you right.
    If you are referring to the drop down cards while in game which states details of units stats, then to my knowledge, its not possible to add more info. If you are talking about unit description, a text which is part of the same drop down, then that something we can change, only I do not want to add dynamic information there, because those stats change all the time, and we would have to update it as well...which is too much hassle.

  15. #35
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    I've never said that it is a easy job, but I guess isn't so complicated to add in unit desciption, in same drop down (I didn't know this is the right name) few more informations because there are such as things (... armed with lance and powerful mace...) like : 30 arows, highly trained, if secondaru is AP, so on. Not all, but some of these will get the best vision of a unit in all Medieval mods.
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  16. #36
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Are you volunteering?

  17. #37
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    I was waiting for that and I could be, if someone would show me how to do it . This is the most important wish of mine. So, if I would see for the first, I will try to do it for all the units (specially I don't have too much work at job ).
    I'm serious!!!
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  18. #38
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    BTW, I've seen something in tonga.net to help me but is only for BC 1.5. So I don't know in which files I have to search and after to write aditional informations (ex : They carry 6 heavy javelins - for AP or 6 light javelin for non AP units.)
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

  19. #39
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    So, you will update the description of some 400 units, and be available every time to update them again when we recalculate the stats? Great!
    I suggest you wait until the new version of EDU is ready and then you can start.

  20. #40
    predadan79's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: BC2 Playing Guidelines - Battle mechanics

    Yes, i do. In fact it is not a big deal, only a numer of hours. But the goal is noble!!
    And in these conditions it is good to have someone that could verify again the files.
    "A people with no history is a people with no future" - Nicolae Iorga

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