Greek Orthodox Church and Greece

[apostate]

is anybody suggesting that the majority of Greeks are faithful xian orthodox?
coz we certainly are not.....

xians clearly formaly counted themselves in Greece some years ago when the orthodox church collected votes for protesting against making optional the recordation of the religion on identification cards......
after some months of demonstrations,gatherings,political speeches and full mobilisation of official and unofficial Church the signatures they managed to raise were about 2 to 3 millions......i guess the majority were old people attending church and many already fully dead or multiple signatures....
that makes them only 1/4 of Greeks (even with the flatulent numbers themselves announced) who live in Hellas-Greeks who live in foreign countries usually tend to be more faithful to their herders......most Greeks are rational atheists and agnostics.....many are radical antixians too.....some are even heathen.....

their ridiculous orthodox dogma (ortho dogma?ti ein touto ore?pote mia doxasia einai orthe?) is dying,but it still annoys people who are experiencing an outrageous and constant catechesis from the time we are bornt until we die.......
i dont blame them,they are totally funny.....i recall them all my life saynig their :wub:s

from a pals house roof i can see 3 churches in the neighbour!!
nevertheless the priests are about to build a fourth one over a park that children and teens amuse themselves and when some people protested last year the priests brought fanatic xians to shout against them!

i m totally ashamed about xian activities and their interference in political life,we are something like the Iran of Europe,the only product Greece is good at is building new churches,i ve heard its between 20 and 50(quite xpensive buildings) each year!!!

a couple of months ago a great scandal was uncovered and it was known in public that priests were controlling court decisions,video and photos with overage priest having kind of sex with young lady,priest travelling to Albania for young boys even that the archbishop collaborated and had assigned jobs to a Mosad agent!!
......or that himself had helped in the past to reduce drug dealer sentence.......that guy worked at his cathedral and mr Paraskevaides(archbishops name) used his influence to save him.The funny thing is that this guy was Albanian and the car with the drugs belonged to him......while in the car was another guy (Greek) too who suffered a double sentence than the Albanian......thats not strange coz priests are after Albanians and Bulgarian young immigrants coz the vast majority of Greek lads despise church....dont forget that xianity is an international religion and doesnt care about ethnicity but for whom is enough unsophisticated to be manipulated.....they have proven it at the past when brought Slavs and Armenians to inhabite Athon and Krete (after slaughtering Greek gentile populations)
the funny thing is that they try to convience us that the are the true patriots,have served Hellas well and whoever is not xian orthodox is not true Greek but a repulsive miasma!!!!.......while it is well known that they excommunicated Greek national revolution 1821 even that they agreed with Turks(and helped em) capturing Instabul 1453 (not that i care the least about it)
not to mention they have unleashed lately some ridiculous people suggesting.......
1.that (anyway most likely imaginary personalities) jehoshua and myriam were Greek!
2.that ancient Greeks were in fact monotheists!!
and the old classic one:
3.that east Roman empire,which is missnamed as Byzantio (Byzantio was a colony of Megara,East Roman empire was East Roman Empire until 1453),had actually preserved Hellenism through ages!!!!! (the same ages their foreign emperors ruined as-not speaking about last decades and P d)
ppprrrrrrrr.....

......also recently too......the archbishops spiritual father (also a bishop himself) is accused of sexual harassment from a number of men and also there are accusations of sexual relationships between monks/priests in his monastery (from where Paraskevaides comes from)
remember also the orthodox patriach of jerusalem who granted land and buildings to the jews......soon all scandals were suddenly buried in order to restore church reputation......

.....when i attended university one Friday (not any holiday,regualr course) i noticed priest and theologies had come in the amphitheatre for debate about the jew jehoshua and his jewish heresy.....
all lads were watching them and having a great time laughing with those pathetic but arrogant priests who think they themselves that are more valid on their viewpoint of divine.......
however in Thessalonike,Macedonia university there was recently a conference of those scamps who suggested that non orthodox Greeks should be prohibited by law!!!......when some people protested (with whom i ve got contact through web) they were beaten up by church bullies!

try to come in Greece,go to a court for your affairs and ask to vow political not religious(u will most likely lose the trial),or even simple in the army tell them that u dont want to vow with the Greeks(though a Greek yourself) but to have political vow with some non xians,who live in Greece but not of Greek ethnicity (where will u end up to serve?)

prediction for next decades:they will name firstly Plato a saint (not that much of his work saved by accident) then Alexander and then they collapse.....party time!

for now i m totally ashamed to live in semitheocratic medieval "Greekistan" along with that xian circus-it offers great totally free amusement though!

1 2 3 sas kanoumai ta exoda na pate sten Persia!
SALOM

<<Epiriote is it true that Anastasios is about to go for jerusalem patriarch?>>

[HawkeyE]

Just because the country is religious doesn't necessarily make it midieval, Greece is pretty modern nowadays... Anyway, you seem like you're trying to speak for the majority but you aren't, the vast majority in Greece still are Orthodox... There's probably a few atheists/agnostics and maybe 1000 heathens. I'll say there are maybe a whole 1,000,000 ahteists/agnostics/heathens in all of Greece, at the very most. that's every 1 out of 11 people isn't Orthodox...

And saying what you're saying about the church during the ottoman Empire is crap, if it wasn't for them you probably wouldn't be speaking Greek right now because they had the kryfa sxolia where the priests taught the next generation about their heritage in hidden caves under monasteries and churches. And the revolution started because the Bishop in Kalamata (or around there) was executed.

And people saying the ancient Greeks were leaning more and more towards monotheism during the time right before Jesus is anything new, they've been saying that for awhile. Lots of people began believing that the sun God, Helios, had all the power, which is why modern day saints and Jesus have the gold rings around their heads when they're in paintings and icons. Helios was drawn with a halo too.

The Church has had power in Greece for 1700 years now, you should be used to it...

And about the scandal, there really aren't all that many priests involved. They are people, it doesn't happen often but it does happen. Atheists do stuff like that too you know, that's not much of a reason to discredit an entire church of 300 million people. There have always been people corrupted throughout history.

You may not aggree with the religion, but there is no need for you to blow everything out of proportion to try and discourage people. And anyways, like I've been saying, this thread isn't about one particular sect of Orthodoxy, it's about Orthodoxy as a whole.

<<Apostate, efharisto gia to PM alla nomizo tha pao me to Succesors Total War...>>

[apostate]

I've got a question.
Most people seem to know about the major philosophers/theologians of the Catholic tradition (Aquinas, Anselm and so on) but I have no idea who their counterparts in the Orthodox tradition are. If someone could give me a list of names and perhaps also links that would be great.

u reaaly mean u havent heard of early east church "fathers"(cheaters) like famous origen the self castrator
(if u can stand having it cut then cut it)........
gregorios nazianzenos,basileios (east orthodox santa) and xrysostomos…..the three famous antihellenes
also during schisma and negotioations for reunion of churches they had their heroes like "Markos Evgenikos" or monk Gennadios who thought that the world would end in his calculations at 1492!!!
great and wise personalities.....

com on experts provide bonvil with links for your saints theologies.....

-------------------------

dedicated to hawckie

turks and orthodox priest

hhmmm that could spoil my perception for my beloved priests


get serious.....are u reaaly fooled by a jew claiming to be god and from other jews suggesting that the first jew was resurrected from the deads and then fly in the skies?
or u just want to behave like a traditional romanxian?
maybe some millenniums after u die u will resurrect too!
wow thas sounds a very good deal,doesnt it?
or they had convienced u that if u dont believe what they want then u are a damned servant of satan and u will be burnt in hell
or that u thinkancient people were anxiously waiting for the carpenter to teach them how to love each other?

what bothers me about the religion in Greece is that they always butt in everything.....the technical discrimination of people to believers and non believers.....their priviledges

what should really happen is to shut their dirty mouths,unbuild the numerous empty churches,go to monasteries and believe as much as they want to their deity......
while all their fortunes should be immediately recorded and then regularly taxed as everything else is taxed……most people dont take seriously what the sheperds say and preach anyway

also church should be fully kept in control by the state…..not the way its now that church is a state within the state and government along with church benefit from each other in various ways......not even that famous split everybody was talking about,which is a big trap

church,its riches and the priests behavior clearly subdued to state and laws


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


besides empty churches,old women,some neobyzantine fanatics,high priest riches, monastery fortresses,much incense and mumbling there is nothing more or supernatural for orthodox religion!
i hope soon Hellas becomes a civilized country.....
in greek speaking web forums agnostics,left parties atheists,heathen internationalists,heathen patriots and various antixians already dominate over romanxians and hibrewxians orthodoxs who are fleeing like chickens-next step Balkan forums

when more people realize that desert jews,several soapless barbarians so called "prophets",roman emperor Konstantine and modern stupid sheperds or lunatic theologians simple cannot have a more valid thesis for divine and supernatural than themselves,then hellenoorthodoxia becomes farcical past and joke-already it is a fairytail for grown up children who think East Roman empire is the successor of Hellenic civilization!

its funny to claim to be proud greek and orthodox xian at the same when greeks were nearly vanished by romanxians in an era which Greeks didnt poccess political control over their homelands(only very little in regional decisions) coz those rx needed to build their new world on ruins of ancient civilization,so that they wont have to face any competition from different cosmotheory
sorry vre hawckie alla den antexo na kanei kaneis diafhmese sta tragia!
go otan tous vlepo piano ta rxidia mou (to xereis pou lene:paidia papas!ta rxidia sas!!!)

Greece is totally a retard country religiously speaking......
u open your tv and hear superstitious whackies talking about miraculous pictures of saint something or myriam or whatever or thaumatourge bones of saint whoever which are splited into pieces and sold for good luck!
and many times newscasters back them!not to mention duffy Liakopoulos in 5 small channels simultaneously saying his crazy hellenoorhodox :wub:s and combining them with ufo fairy tails and prophecies of Russians coming south to save Greece.....usual for xians...they always need their savior.....

we are very advanced in religious issues here in Hellas.....
necromancy in orthodox medieval greekistan

[apostate]

Orthodox extremism - no, it does not exist. Actually it is despiesd by the vast majority of orthodox on par with the attempts to force your religion on someone else

u re either completely damn or liar......xianism means brutal xtremist

Orthodox priests marry

u should have known that high rank priests CANNOT NOT BE MARRIED bojo
they are AGAMIES-AGAMOCRACY.....
ohter priests marry before becoming priests....but they can do sex for children breeding not for fun

looking forward for russian patriarch taking over.....u are wellcome

-------------------------------

Epiriote how would it sound to u:
Anastasios "Patriarch of Jerusalem and new Sion"!!!
full title

*send me some info about that mod*

[apostate]

Ok, I'd tried to hold it in but how about you and Apostate leave this thread. THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT ORTHODOXY IN GENERAL. Apostate talks about specific sects only, and you Epirote are now talking about a mod... Can a moderator clean some of their posts out of this thread? It's really started to deviate from its original purpose.

excellent example of orthodox xian arrogance and of their outrageous and unjustifiedied sense of superiority agianst their critisires!!!


they can never stand the different opinion and the harsh critisim the deniers of their deity bring up
.....and not only doesnt he want to exclude me from the thread but Epiriote too who was just talking about an orthodox patriarch.....somebody has totally lost his temper :sweatingb

.....that was enough to uncover your insecurity hawckey and the obvious lack of arguments
there are never real arguments any way to back the need of existance for your funny xian circus

hawckeys demand applies and uncovers the tendecies of orthodox xtremism too......that is always trying to penalise antixian opinions and apply their religious tacticts and laws to political government and transform Hellas to Iran....if they could be able they would have already done it

a non xian suffers the fascist xtremism in schooll in uni in army service……and i guess later on too until his death…..if somebody wants to be burnt after death he cannot for example for the reason the scabious priests say that the humen remainings will become people once more!

flag
in orthodox monastery saying "ORTHODOX RELIGION OR DEATH".......
such similar flags appeared on the streets during religious mobilizations against removing XO from political identities.....
if i appear on streets with a flag saying instead of "orthodox religion or death"……."death to orthodox religion" next thing i m confined......

u are believing in jews turning into zombies-get over with that.....and stop trying to ban the rational opinion!
u have been given by the theocratic propaganda an internal fake need for being saved by a jew named "ΥECHOSHOJAH"
who jews themselves consider to be son of a hairdresser who had sex with many men whose father was a roman soldier named Panther......
(that could explain the "parthenogenesis" very well)

u open your tv and hear superstitious whackies talking about miraculous pictures of saint something or myriam or whatever or thaumatourge bones of saint whoever which are splited into pieces and sold for good luck!

example for what i mean.....
yesterday news said that in a church in Kapandrite region one more miraculous picture of saint whatever was found!!!
first topic in tv news-completely ridiculous and silly women are rushing to kneel/worship/submit to the picture!!!!
while childish old timer people claim to have seen shadows,divine marks or hear steps and other :wub:s
thats all orthodox idolatrous religion is about

also again in the news yesterday xian church protest against Marilyn Manson coming to Greece and xian church wanted to ban and forbid SlipKnot band too.....
more today news……bishop says that much night entertaintment should stop coz it disrupts society and xian usages
more……orthodox church bans outdoor weddings with excuse that people dont pay attention to the mystery!
i guess that rediculousness makes greekorthodox very proud
shame on u!

----------------
Epiriote energopoiese to pm sou.....e tsekare to AoH forum

[apostate]

the word "orthodox" itself is a joke!
it comes from greek words "orthos" and "doxasia".....merging to orthodoxia which means proper/correct notion/doctrine......

which standards make a notion to be proper?in what way a notion becomes ultimate?
by the synods of sheperds which maped out orthodox xian doctrine?.....to which the church is still stucked?

ask an orthodox xian

i ask a couple of classical questions to greek only orthodoxs:
since u come from the geeks with all that ancient staff and i guess u are proud of your heritage and admire Hellenic culture why do u consider Hellenic cosmotheory as idolatric and dishonour your ancestors since the religion was an internal part of their cosmotheory?
why have u adopted the jewish mythology and consider it sacred while u consider your own mythology as a fairy tail?
why do u think u are not idolatrous yourself since other Christian sects and muzls accuse u of being polytheists and idolatrous?
why at least dont u eliminate OT from the holy scripts to prove u are not hebrewxians?
how do u feel when your church during Sunday of Orthodoxia celebration speak the "7 trisanathema" against Hellenes?
how do u feel when your church celebrates Macabean revolt against Hellenistic kingdom of Seleucides?
how do u feel when your church honours David who defeated the much possible greek originated Philisteans?

[HawkeyE]

You basically summed up the meaning of the word "faith", doxia. And to all the "Hellenic" points that you just brought up: I am EXTREMELY proud to be Greek my friend Apostate, but that does NOT mean that just because someone is Greek, that I'm going to not question what they say. Greeks can be wrong, and when I believe in God, and what the Orthodox Church teaches, not just the Greek Orthodox Church like you're talking about but the whole Church, then I consider any Greek going against my faith to be in the wrong. That doesn't mean I hate them for not conforming, nor does it mean I want to be their best friend and accept what they accept. Why can't modern Orthodox Greeks still honour their past? How can believing in something they think, they know is true, dishonour there ancestors?

You also said that Modern Greece is just like Medieval Greece, and how that's so bad, but you want to go back even further in Greece's history? You make very little sense in your "points". Take a day off, and really, really think about these things with a less hate-filled mind. Besides a few corrupt priests who have nothing to do with the true Orthodox way, ask yourself what you really find so appalling about the Orthodox faith.

I have news for you my friend Apostate, it was the Ancient Greeks that converted to Christianity, so why don't you go back in time and complain to them how they were dishonouring themselves, something that you would have no place to tell them. You really need to calm down your hatred for Christianity and the Church. If you hate Christianity so much, I suggest that you go to the government office so that you can officially change your belief to a lack of one, from Greek Orthodox to atheist. You are the one who apparently isn't proud enough of himself to stand up for what he does, or does not believe in. Go lecture yourself.

Now can we get back on topic and you to quit crapping on my thread?

[apostate]

Now can we get back on topic and you to quit crapping on my thread?

of course we will get back on topic but not the way u want it!
i m trying here to make that thread worth something instead of being a completely one-sided crap!

You basically summed up the meaning of the word "faith", doxia

u are unable to understand the contaddiction within the word itself!

also u said:

but that does NOT mean that just because someone is Greek, that I'm going to not question what they say

but later on u add:

Greeks can be wrong, and when I believe in God, and what the Orthodox Church teaches, not just the Greek Orthodox Church like you're talking about but the whole Church, then I consider any Greek going against my faith to be in the wrong

ok i got it!
u must be kidding after all!!!
u question Hellenes (which i also do in the fields they are overrun by modern world or contrast my one view) but u dont question the beliefs of a bunch nomads desert jews which were modulated to serve the roman empire!
really interesting!
......and that makes u agree 100% with what are written in xian scripts and whith all their preaching too

How can believing in something they think, they know is true, dishonour there ancestors?

wake up at last!
just recall how does your church considers your ancestors for whom u claim u are proud!
idolatrous,bisexual,orgiastic,daimonised,unclean,unbelievers!

less hate-filled mind. Besides a few corrupt priests who have nothing to do with the true Orthodox way, ask yourself what you really find so appalling about the Orthodox faith

a great distance separates hating from despising them!
few corrupted?were have u been hanging around the past months?

also since u offered to answer questions u d better stop avoiding answer those very simple questions-they are about your personal feelings,really easy questions but each one answer seperately.......

since u come from the geeks with all that ancient staff and i guess u are proud of your heritage and admire Hellenic culture why do u consider Hellenic cosmotheory as idolatric and dishonour your ancestors since the religion was an internal part of their cosmotheory?
why have u adopted the jewish mythology and consider it sacred while u consider your own mythology as a fairy tail?
why do u think u are not idolatrous yourself since other Christian sects and muzls accuse u of being polytheists and idolatrous?
why at least dont u eliminate OT from the holy scripts to prove u are not hebrewxians?
how do u feel when your church during Sunday of Orthodoxia celebration speak the "7 trisanathema" against Hellenes?
how do u feel when your church celebrates Macabean revolt against Hellenistic kingdom of Seleucides?
how do u feel when your church honours David who defeated the much possible greek originated Philisteans?

I have news for you my friend Apostate, it was the Ancient Greeks that converted to Christianity

i ve got also some interesting news for u too......havent u ever been told that during years 300-600 when the big part of (by force) exchristianisation of Hellenes took place they werent free people but subjects of the converted in to the new religion theocratic and fundamentalist East Roman Empire ruled by barbarian non Greek fascist emperors tortures of the your ancestors?
sou leei tiptoe to pistefson e tethanai?
those years Greeks were the unholy,the bams and the inferior......i invoke Gioutprada(Justianos) law code for that
anyway to claim that they were excristianised immediately and smoothly but not in long process and in a river of blood testifies his blindeness and lack of common knowledge and logic!
dont forget that the well-known modern orthodox theologian "Mouzakis" has already asked many times publicly the official church to stop hiding,recognize the pogroms and officially apologise!
that means your poor argument collapses with not much effort.....

oohh (for people not familiar with orthodox superstition).....what was the xian thesis of greek church for ancient greeks.....
that some of them were xians but didnt know it!!!!
that makes them........proxians xians!!!!!

but most of them were visited by jehoshua in Hades,massively confessed he is the god and converted in xians too!!!!
that makes dead people converting to xians!!!!!

SPARE US

You also said that Modern Greece is just like Medieval Greece, and how that's so bad, but you want to go back even further in Greece's history?

com n now,u lower yourself by such fireworks.....

If you hate Christianity so much, I suggest that you go to the government office so that you can officially change your belief to a lack of one, from Greek Orthodox to atheist

changing my religion is completely unimportant issue for me and every rational person too
paperworks doesnt make someone xian or atheist or anything......his obidience to stupidity makes him xian

You are the one who apparently isn't proud enough of himself to stand up for what he does

i m standing up for many years…..the reaction of your fascist religion?
just imagine it
how i ve paid back your sheperds when i was given the chance?
imagine it again

Go lecture yourself

its more fun lecturing u that needs it more

[Iskender Bey]

Sorry I really dont want to get off-topic, but..

I have news for you my friend Apostate, it was the Ancient Greeks that converted to Christianity

Before Cosntantine made Christainity the official religion of the Empire, I believe most hellenes that day were still pagans. In fact many were later persecuted as the christian emperors came and went.
This is what I believed happened, I could be wrong.

Sorry, back on topic

[General David]

Quite the opposite... Pagan emperors before Constantine persecuted the Christians who were slowly becoming a majority in the empire.

[Iskender Bey]

uh, this is turning into a historical topic. We should open a topic on this as it is an interesting topic and it may draw apostate out of here. And Im sure hawk would love that

[Marshal Qin]

thread split

[apostate]

uh, this is turning into a historical topic. We should open a topic on this as it is an interesting topic and it may draw apostate out of here. And Im sure hawk would love that

....in the East Egypt,middle east etc thats parly true….during 3 century bloody conficts between xians and gentiles which ended in xian benefit…..in Rome and West......i dont care…..

but we are talking about the greek mainland specifically the southern part of Aimos peninsula and Asia Minor coasts-xians there were the pathetic minority.......
-until New Rome was build over former city of Byzantio and the rest is well known…..exchristianised(areian sect) barbarians given title by Roman empire coz they were too strong to face…..were raiding Greece…..but Greeks themselves werent xians at that time-thats pretty much clear....

dont forget that the name Hellen itself was used for CENTURIES by church to describe the gentiles!

example until Konstantine age the Athon peninsula was a worship center for Artemis....which during night was impassable for men....(at least the sacred forests of the goddess)
.....romanxians ruined the whole area and established the monastery center (by bring groups of xchristianised barbarians) which lies in place till today.....their complex was so large that they enforced an impassable for women (instead for men as it was till that time)
.....today even female animals(ships,goats etc) are still prohibited from Athon!!
-believe it or not-

*no Iskeneder i dont intend to support that thread....besides the facts cannot change*

[Bovril]

Its certainly true that Greece has a bad record on Human Rights when it comes to freedom of religion. There have been a whole bunch of cases which the Greek government lost about them abusing this right, especially in schools and against Jehova's witnesses I seem to remember.

[apostate]

Its certainly true that Greece has a bad record on Human Rights when it comes to freedom of religion. There have been a whole bunch of cases which the Greek government lost about them abusing this right, especially in schools and against Jehova's witnesses I seem to remember.

in schools....u are totally right

jhwh marters/witnesses.....those wackies are even worse than greek church!
i imagine them using their influence in international court law and institutions so they can continue uncontrollably their pathetic tactics.....
they ring your door to proselytize u…..they send attractive girls to tempt u....they had caused many problems to family cohesion by approaching teens to convert them....they annoy u on the streets.....they are even more superstitious than the more stupid orthodox.....they are after rich persons to convert them and make them gift their fortunes.....these are well known issues

their religion/heresy is more close to judaism than xianity (also a judaic heresy)
hhmm jhwh marters rights......
where are my own rights when during military service i was forced to attend the church without being xian?where are the rights of millions non believers Hellenes who are forced to fit in the religious system??where are the rights of every infant who is vaptised in a religion when it cannot even speak a word?where are the rights of the teens who dont want to pray at schooll where are the rights etc

i would suggest the greek government paid the bill for jhwh marters to visit oftenly the shrink and emprison their leaders so that they stop disturbing people......
i also say fanatic xians with all their heresies pack their bags and move to israel and iran where they belong

*this thread along with the other one about Albanian church should be deleted.....nobody asked for them in the first place
we want to have the right to speak our opinion in the threads we like not in the one we are forced to do so
we seem to agree with Epiriote on that.....*

PLZ delete this thread

[Epirote]

The one thing that I don`t like most about Greek Orthodox church is tha fact that despite being a class of people who do not contribute to the society with work, they have gathered a tremendus welth.
Welth from donations , land, money..... from wills of faithfull greeks,exploitation of religious sites...............................
In a few words Greek Orthodox church is filthy rich.
Why a unmarried Patriarch , a servant of God needs all that money?
Does Greece needs more new Churchs or New schools, new sport centers......... for the youth?

I agree with Apostate.
I never asked for this thread.
Someone should have asked us if we wanted to.

[apostate]

their economical power is immence-xian church is the most priviledged business around
it even owns a considerable percentage of hellenic central bank!
that means they can influence monetary policy!

many monasteries own stocks for companies and banks.....a pal of mine who works in bank says that when the loan application forms which are checked to be approved or rejected always they are approved when come from cathedrals and monasteries......
in countryside they also own areas of size it isnt not even estimated......the state itself pays rent to them since they are using buildings owned by church to host the ministries and offices.....not to mention the elder people who are manipulated by monks so that when they die the children/beneficiaries wont get their parents property
i had heard it was calculated that the current church property if it was shared to Greek people it would provide each family with an annual income they can live with for about 20 to 30 years.....dont know how realistic this is

but for sure their "divine property" is not recorded in detail,not taxed,the priests are paid from state (not church itself) as public employees are paid while priests are also paid for rituals....the most simple asperge costs from 100 to 150 euros......
........and still the priesthood gang is so impudent that asks simple people who attend the church to pay for xian social services towards poor people and demand from government to offer more money to low social classes......while themselves keep and multiply their riches uncontrollable

plz delete that therad at last!
(and somebody tell hawckie to come back to keep on snifling and snifling)

[Iskender Bey]

I have one question Apostate.

How do you expect that hellenic identity, religion(for better or for worse, do you want to be muslim?),lifestyle etc etc could have survived in the ottoman age without the church? You want to know what can happen when a people dont have a strong national identity and protector of it during a time of long imperial control....Look at Albania. We went from Orthodox(south)/Catholic(North) to a 70% Islamic nation(numbers are much smaller as most of them are actually agnostics and athiests), we completely lost our history, idenity and names(to a large extent).

Do you think this would not have happened to Serbs or Greeks had it not been for the church?

[Illyrian]

I do believe that the orthodox church had an expansionist role in the empire of Constantine the Great. Even the emperor himself did not convert to christianity until the moments before his death. He used the religion as a tool, as religion makes men do crazy things, as some extremist muslims are doing today. I agree with one thing that APOSTATE has said so far, and that is his translation of the word ORTHODOX. He explained it very well what it is. It is an indoctrination. Constantine chose greek because Greek throughout the middle ages was the language of scholars, the old language of the wise, and Constantine used that very wisely to rival his colleague in Rome. I think personally from reading many texts on balkan history and books from the east, mainly crusades that Islam was started in the path of ORTHODOX example with Mohammed creating the greatest muslim empire the world had ever seen, they called it a caliphate. Saladdin followed the same example when he fought the crusades against the christians, also coming victorious in his struggle.

I want to diverge alittle to what Iskenderbej said about albania. Albania as a state did not fall because it lacked religion, it lacked a direction. Just like the Germans in World War II, all Albanians in Albania need is a vision they can believe in. Albanians believed during the nineties in the Democratic party and as i recall, it had the fasted rising economy the World had seen in that decade because the people believed in the leaders. When they destroyed everything that was build for decades and centuries, everything fell apart, and people have not come out of that depression. All people need is something to believe. ALEXANDER's army believed he was a God and that he would lead them to victory, and they won every battle they fought. Alexander did not win it for them, they won it for themselves, althought i don't want to take away credit from his leadership skills. People are often too blind to see their own potential, and sometimes institutions like religions, leaders like Alexander and Hitler are needed to show people what they are really capable of doing. Thats all i want to say.

Religion has taken the wrong path, and keep going down that path without remorse. They have turned from institutions of solidarity, brotherhood to hate groups, and economic machines. It is pointless to look at them individually, and try to find some fact to corner them and make them void. People should just look in themselves, and if God exists, he will be in their heart, not in some church, synagogue, or mosque.

[Iskender Bey]

No Illyrian, you completely, completely missunderstood me. I sad that it was the Orthodox Church, which had power in the Ottoman Empire, that allowed Serbs and Greeks to maintain their identity. We did not have anything to protect us. So we were heavily taxed. Not being able to afford all thsi taxation we became muslims.