My request for RS II to CA

**Rt. Hon. Gentleman** · June 28, 2009, 10:52 AM

I knew it was futile, but I thought I'd ask CA if you guys could edit the exe. Here's what I wrote to Jack:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Hi Jack,

I send this PM to you as a representative of CA, and not as an individual. I know you are a designer and not a coder, but I also know that you are a former modder, which is helpful in this case.

What I wanted to ask was, why are the RSII team who are making, (no offense to Terrae Expungnandae) probably the most comprehensive game mod of any TW game ever, being denied the opportunity to alter the .exe file for the game? I could understand the dilemma if this meant people could use the mod without buying RTW, but I am assured that this is not the case.

Rome, as obviously you will be well aware, has so many hardcoded limits that modding it with any ambition is incredibly difficult. If you would let the team remove the limits thus imposed, I feel sure that the mod would be improved manifold. (This goes for all RTW mods, incidentally)

I thought it might be to do with impingement on the profits accrued by the newer game, but in all honesty surely the Rome engine is too backward now by comparison to your shiny new Warscape to mount a serious threat? Indeed, if you helped support certain Rome modifications on your website, it may actually improve interest in the series and make sales (even) greater for the new games.

I feel I should say that I am in no way affiliated with any of the RTW mod teams for any modification, I am simply a player who wants mods to fulfil their potential rather than be hamstrung by non-sensical hard-coding limits.

I enclose a post from the head of the RSII mod team, DVK901, who is responding to my querying him on this subject. You may find it interesting (you may not think it is true, hell I don't know.)

Thanks in advance for reading, and I would appreciate a reply even if the answer is a categorical "no".

Regards,
Rt. Hon. Gentlemen.

Post from DVK:

Originally Posted by dvk901

Their answers to various 'proposals' we (as a team) and others on this site (myself included) have supported and\or requested have ranged from:

1. "You can change things and we'll probably look the other way as long as you don't change how the game works." (In answer to request to raise some of the limits like DMB model numbers, number of units, population level changes for cities) We never could figure out exactly what 'changing how the game works' meant.

2. Some other people asked for something...I don't remember what...but that was just 'No'.

3. Then there was a request to combine the features of RTW\BI\ALEX into one EXE file and release this as a patch. Answer: "We don't have anyone who knows the code for those anymore." (HUH?)

So basically from the incredibly vague to the incredibly lame....like the 'Doorman' at the gate of the City of Oz. "The Wonderful Wizard says: Go AWAY!".

I doubt that I'll get a response, but it seemed worth bringing the matter to their attention. My apologies if their are any factual inaccuracies, I am but a humble player/composer!

**HunterKYA** · June 28, 2009, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Gentleman

I knew it was futile, but I thought I'd ask CA if you guys could edit the exe. Here's what I wrote to Jack:

I doubt that I'll get a response, but it seemed worth bringing the matter to their attention. My apologies if their are any factual inaccuracies, I am but a humble player/composer!

It's still awfully brave of you to ask in an effort to expand the possibilities of the game, even if CA stiffs you in the end.

**~~Ibram~~** · June 28, 2009, 12:22 PM

I don't think CA are deliberatly trying to siff anyone here. In fact in the first response the team got, they were told that CA would chose to ignore certain things. The only problem by the sounds of it is that the RS team couldn't quite figure out what they mean't

Sounds to me that CA are trying to be reasonable, but they're being waaaayy to subtle about it.

**Rt. Hon. Gentleman** · June 28, 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ibram

I don't think CA are deliberatly trying to siff anyone here. In fact in the first response the team got, they were told that CA would chose to ignore certain things. The only problem by the sounds of it is that the RS team couldn't quite figure out what they mean't

Sounds to me that CA are trying to be reasonable, but they're being waaaayy to subtle about it.

I disagree. I don't think CA have some evil plan, but I just think they are operating under a "when in doubt, just refuse" policy. Honestly, what harm can a 5 year old engine do to them now?

**~~Ibram~~** · June 29, 2009, 06:03 AM

*Shrug* who knows? Maybe there's something we don't know.

The origional response also hinted that the team who worked on Rome are no longer AT Creative Assembly - so if something did go 'wrong' or whatever, they wouldn't be able to fix it.

**Jingles** · June 29, 2009, 08:38 AM

Lord knows what CA's decisions behind such policies are. Other companies like Paradox allow .exe editing right off the bat, and even make their games open source after long enough.

I dunno...But are the limits in place from the .exe really that bad? I'm sure we'd all like to fiddle with Rome's AI, but If the devs can make something as amazing looking as RS2 in spite of it, do these limits really matter?

**icydawgfish** · June 29, 2009, 12:56 PM

I sent Thamis a PM early last year about the same topic. I'll copy and paste it below

Hi!

I'm not answering you as an employee of the Creative Assembly. This is a personal opinion.

I absolutely agree with you! I didn't work on RTW, and I have no idea why things went as they did, or why this hasn't been dealt with in a patch. Nobody is working on Rome anymore, so it won't get changed.

Wait for Empire... ;-)

Jan

Quote:
Originally Posted by icydawgfish
I'm no modder and I know your probably a busy man/woman so you may not have time to anwser this and if you don't, I won't be angry as I understand. But my question regards the RTW engine. Why is it impossible to get around the hardcoded limits? Or why hasn't a way to do this been released? RTW was released in 2005 (I believe) so it's probably not selling much any more, so what's the harm in releasing the internal coding and how to get around it to the public? The hard coded limits severely limit what a modder can do and as a result, creativity goes to waste. Again, why hasn't the "code" for lack of a better word been released or a method for getting around the hardcoding? I don't mean to come off as rude and if I did, my sincerest apologies, but this question has been on my mind every time I see the phrase "Impossible, it's hardcoded" or a similiar phrase.

Sincerly,
IcyDawgFish

**Leeham991** · June 29, 2009, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by icydawgfish

I sent Thamis a PM early last year about the same topic. I'll copy and paste it below

Hi!

I'm not answering you as an employee of the Creative Assembly. This is a personal opinion.

I absolutely agree with you! I didn't work on RTW, and I have no idea why things went as they did, or why this hasn't been dealt with in a patch. Nobody is working on Rome anymore, so it won't get changed.

Wait for Empire... ;-)

Jan

Quote:
Originally Posted by icydawgfish
I'm no modder and I know your probably a busy man/woman so you may not have time to anwser this and if you don't, I won't be angry as I understand. But my question regards the RTW engine. Why is it impossible to get around the hardcoded limits? Or why hasn't a way to do this been released? RTW was released in 2005 (I believe) so it's probably not selling much any more, so what's the harm in releasing the internal coding and how to get around it to the public? The hard coded limits severely limit what a modder can do and as a result, creativity goes to waste. Again, why hasn't the "code" for lack of a better word been released or a method for getting around the hardcoding? I don't mean to come off as rude and if I did, my sincerest apologies, but this question has been on my mind every time I see the phrase "Impossible, it's hardcoded" or a similiar phrase.

Sincerly,
IcyDawgFish

What a reply... Think their boss told them to say that?

**Rt. Hon. Gentleman** · June 29, 2009, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs

Lord knows what CA's decisions behind such policies are. Other companies like Paradox allow .exe editing right off the bat, and even make their games open source after long enough.

I dunno...But are the limits in place from the .exe really that bad? I'm sure we'd all like to fiddle with Rome's AI, but If the devs can make something as amazing looking as RS2 in spite of it, do these limits really matter?

Oh, dear chap! Hardcoding limits really are that bad. Maximum of 20 factions, maximum of 255(I think) men per unit, maximum number of units in game (forget what, sorry), no possibility to meaningfully change diplomacy, model detail limits in place, the list is bloody endless!

**Nakharar** · June 29, 2009, 04:18 PM

maybe a petition...

**Rt. Hon. Gentleman** · June 29, 2009, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nakharar

maybe a petition...

That's actually a brilliant idea! I daresay we could get all the guys from EB in on the act, as well as pretty much every other major mod for RTW...

**DoogansQuest** · June 29, 2009, 05:01 PM

In the end, they are a business trying to make money. If it isn't profitable for them to spend resources and manpower to edit RTW or remove the hard-coded locks on number of factions, etc., then they won't do it.

We can't be upset at them for that. Companies should be allowed to do everything (within legal boundaries) to succeed. Their focus is on attracting new players and allying with the hardware folks by releasing products which require shiny, new computers.

If a few nostalgic veterans sign a petition, they will give a cookie-cutter response and release new games anyway. There are not enough of us to stave off the worldwide demand for vanilla TW games.

**stanley86** · June 29, 2009, 05:37 PM

But still, they could just tell us: ok guys, if you want, you can look inside the exe file and change some things (How? - find it out by yourself

), like: faction limit, regions limit etc., but nothing more. It'd be better than nothing. It's only my wish, and I know that unless someone violates the license agreement and cracks the exe file (which won't happen), the modders will have tied hands.
But hey! You have a right to dream

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Jingles** · June 29, 2009, 05:45 PM

Oh, Lord I forgot about the faction limit. Been playing Paradox games too long... Well, yes, that's definitely at least one limit that would be nice to remove. Of course, RS2's got a sort of work-around for that, so I dunno if it's that consequential.

I've got a feeling that since they've got noone who originally worked on Rome, they're probably not sure what exactly is in there that they would/would not want modders to get their hands on, and they'd rather just forget about it. To cite my earlier example using Paradox interactive, they've had pretty much one team working on all their internal titles, so when it comes to removing hardcoded stuff, they know what's what and what's not.

**stanley86** · June 29, 2009, 05:58 PM

Good point Jingle_Bombs. Who knows what's hiding there? OR maybe they know, but don't want to show us for some reason...

**tone** · June 29, 2009, 06:24 PM

There's certainly a whole load of stuff they were clearly working on that got commented out, much of which went on to appear in M2TW in some form.

**D.B. Cooper** · June 29, 2009, 06:50 PM

Someone enlighten me, what is possible through editing the .exe file?

**stanley86** · June 29, 2009, 07:03 PM

Wel, I don't call myself an expert but I believe that the whole game mechanics is located there, as well as the famous hardcoded limits, diplomacy etc. That's how I think.