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Thread: Waterloo

  1. #1

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    I found an interesting article on msn encarta which describes battle pretty thoroughly.
    You might want to check this out (I won't put the URL, just quote since this is not my text, is it OK?).


    Battle of Waterloo

    Introduction
    Final and decisive action of the Napoleonic Wars, that effectively ended French domination of the European continent and brought about drastic changes in the political boundaries and the power balance of Europe. Fought on June 18, 1815, near Waterloo, in what is now Belgium, the battle ranks as a great turning point in modern history.

    Background of the battle
    After raising France to a position of preeminence in Europe from 1804 to 1813, Napoleon met defeat in 1814 by a coalition of major powers, notably Prussia, Russia, Britain, and Austria. Napoleon was then deposed and exiled to the island of Elba, and Louis XVIII was made ruler of France. In September 1814, the Congress of Vienna, with delegates from most of the nations of Europe, convened to discuss problems arising from the defeat of France. On February 26, 1815, however, while the congress was in session, Napoleon escaped from Elba and returned to France. There many veterans of his former campaigns flocked to his standard, and on March 20, 1815, he again ascended the throne. The Congress of Vienna, alarmed by Napoleon's return to power, had reacted quickly to the crisis. On March 17 Austria, Great Britain, Prussia, and Russia each agreed to contribute 150,000 troops to an invasion force to be assembled in Belgium near the French border. A majority of other nations present at the congress also pledged troops for the invasion of France, which was to be launched on July 1, 1815.

    Mobilization and strategy
    In Paris, Napoleon, learning of the invasion plan, quickly determined to attack the allies on their own ground before their army could take shape. With characteristic energy and decisiveness, he mobilized within two months an army of 360,000 trained soldiers. He deployed half of these troops within France as a security force and grouped the remainder into attack units. On June 14, 1815, Napoleon, moving with the utmost speed and secrecy, reached the Franco-Belgian border with 124,000 of his troops. Another 56,000 men were left behind in secondary or supporting positions.
    Napoleon's grand strategy for the coming campaign was typically audacious. Facing him beyond the Belgian border were two separate allied armies. The larger army, a force of 116,000 Prussians and Saxons, led by the Prussian field marshal Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, was based at Namur. Advance elements of Blücher's army were stationed as far west as the towns of Gilly and Charleroi. A force of 93,000 British, Dutch, and German troops was based at Brussels, with an outpost in the village of Quatre-Bras. The leader of this army, the British general Arthur Wellesley, 1st duke of Wellington, was also commander in chief of the allied forces. Napoleon planned to attack both armies with the aim of splitting and destroying them. He intended then to deal with Russian and Austrian armies approaching France from the east. To carry out this plan he divided his forces into two attacking wings and a strategic reserve, which consisted of trusted veterans known as the Old Guard.

    Ligny and Quatre-Bras
    In the action at Ligny, Napoleon's strategy was to coordinate his attack on Blücher with Ney's offensive at Quatre-Bras. The reserve would then swing east or west to aid either wing as circumstances dictated; if all went well, the reserve would finally march northwest, join Ney at Quatre-Bras, and advance on Brussels to split the two allied armies.
    Early in the afternoon of June 16, Napoleon heard the sound of Ney's artillery at Quatre-Bras. He then brought his force of 71,000 into action against Blücher's army of 83,000. After an hour of bloody and inconclusive fighting, Napoleon dispatched an urgent message to Marshal Ney ordering him to send his First Corps, a force totaling 30,000 men, to the battlefield at Ligny. Instead of delivering the order through Marshal Ney's headquarters, Napoleon's courier took it directly to General Jean Baptiste Drouet, comte D'Erlon, the First Corps commander. D'Erlon left immediately for Ligny. When Ney later learned of D'Erlon's departure, however, he dispatched a message ordering the corps back to Quatre-Bras. The message was delivered to D'Erlon just as he reached the Ligny battlefield. Again D'Erlon obeyed instructions, with the result that he took part in neither of the battles. Napoleon was able, however, to defeat Blücher after a sanguinary action lasting three hours. At twilight the Prussians withdrew, leaving 12,000 troops dead or wounded. Because of D'Erlon's failure to enter the fighting, however, the main body of Blücher's army, about 70,000 men, was able to retreat in good order.
    Meanwhile, at Quatre-Bras, Ney had unaccountably waited several hours to begin his attack on the Anglo-Dutch position, and this delay enabled Wellington to reinforce Quatre-Bras with several divisions of cavalry and infantry. Ney finally attacked at 2 pm but was sharply repulsed. Successive onslaughts on the Anglo-Dutch positions were similarly unsuccessful; throughout the afternoon Ney was severely handicapped by the absence of D'Erlon's corps. At about 7 pm Wellington counterattacked vigorously and drove Ney back to the town of Frasnes, a few miles south of Quatre-Bras. Ney lost 4300 troops and Wellington 4700 in the action. D'Erlon, however, joined Ney in Frasnes at 9 pm.

    Moint-Saint-Jean
    Early in the morning of June 17 a courier from Blücher reached Wellington at Quatre-Bras and informed him of the Prussian defeat at Ligny. Wellington, realizing that Napoleon had outflanked him, promptly dispatched a message to Blücher suggesting that he swing to the northwest and join the Anglo-Dutch army for a united stand against Napoleon near the village of Mont-Saint-Jean, just south of the town of Waterloo. Several hours later Wellington retired unobstrusively from Quatre-Bras, leaving behind a brigade of cavalry as a decoy to mislead Marshal Ney.
    At Ligny, that same morning, Napoleon ordered Grouchy to take 30,000 troops and pursue Blücher's retreating army. Napoleon then sent messages to Ney at Frasnes ordering him to engage Wellington immediately. Ney, who was not aware of Wellington's retreat, failed to obey these orders. Napoleon arrived at Frasnes that afternoon, assumed command of Ney's forces, brushed aside the token force guarding Quatre-Bras, and set off with his army in pursuit of Wellington. Early that evening Napoleon caught sight of the Anglo-Dutch army dug in along a high plain south of Mont-Saint-Jean. Both sides began at once to prepare for battle.
    In the meantime, Grouchy had failed to overtake Blücher's army. At about 10 pm on June 17, Grouchy's scouts informed him that the Prussians, instead of retreating east to Namur, had turned northwest, seeking apparently a juncture with Wellington. Grouchy's message of warning to Napoleon brought the reply, sent at 10 am on June 18, that Grouchy should keep trying to make contact with the Prussians. Grouchy's pursuit was slovenly and unhurried, and he failed to locate the enemy.
    On the morning of June 18, the French and Anglo-Dutch armies were in battle position. The Anglo-Dutch forces, facing south, comprised 67,000 troops with 156 cannons, and Wellington had received assurances from Blücher that strong reinforcements from his army of 70,000 would arrive during the day. Wellington's strategy was therefore to resist Napoleon until Blücher's forces could arrive, outflank the emperor's right wing, and so overrun the whole French line. Napoleon's army, facing north, totaled 74,000 troops with 246 cannons. The emperor's battle plan was to capture the village of Mont-Saint-Jean and thus cut off the Anglo-Dutch avenue of retreat to Brussels. Wellington's army could then be destroyed at Napoleon's leisure.

    Ultimate defeat
    The battle began at 11:30 am with a feint by Napoleon at Wellington's right. This maneuver, which proved unsuccessful, was followed by an 80-gun French bombardment designed to weaken the allied center. At about 1 pm Napoleon saw advance elements of Blücher's army approaching from the east. Once again the emperor dispatched a message to Grouchy, apprising him of the situation and ordering him to overtake and engage the Prussians.
    Fierce cavalry and infantry engagements were being fought meanwhile along the ridge, south of Mont-Saint-Jean, that sheltered Wellington's main force. In each instance the French attacks were savagely repulsed. At 4 pm Blücher's advance troops, who had been awaiting an opportune moment, entered the battle and forced the French to fall back about 0.8 km (about 0.5 mi). A counterattack restored the French lines and pushed the Prussians back 1.6 km (1 mi) to the northeast. Shortly after 6 pm Ney drove deep into the Anglo-Dutch center and seriously endangered Wellington's entire line. Wellington rallied, however, and Ney was driven back.
    Napoleon then mounted a desperate general offensive, during which he committed all but five battalions of his Old Guard to an assault on the allied center. Allied infantrymen, formed into hollow squares, inflicted severe losses on the French, crushing the offensive. Although Napoleon regrouped his shattered forces and attacked again, the French situation became increasingly hopeless. At about 8 pm the Prussians, who had taken up positions on the extreme left of Wellington's line, drove through the French right wing, throwing most of Napoleon's troops into panic. Only valiant rearguard actions fought by a few Old Guard battalions enabled the emperor to escape. As Napoleon's routed army fled along the Charleroi road, Wellington and Blücher conferred and agreed that Prussian brigades should pursue the beaten French. During the night of June 18 the Prussians drove the French from seven successive bivouacs and finally forced them back across the Sambre River.

    Aftermath
    Napoleon signed his second abdication on June 22; on June 28 King Louis XVIII was restored to the throne of France, thus ending the so-called Hundred Days. British authorities accepted the former emperor's surrender on July 15; he was later exiled to the island of Saint Helena. So complete was Napoleon's downfall that Waterloo, the name given to his last battle, became a synonym for a crushing defeat.
    In his reminiscences about the Waterloo campaign, Napoleon severely criticized General Grouchy for his failure to intercept the Prussians after their retreat from Ligny. Another lapse was Ney's failure to attack Wellington on June 17 and thus prevent his withdrawal from Quatre-Bras; Ney also erred in ordering D'Erlon's corps to turn back from Ligny on June 16, thus depriving Napoleon of the chance to destroy Blücher's army. Finally, Napoleon himself erred in massing only 124,000 men before Charleroi when he might easily have marshaled more by drawing on reserve troops left in secondary positions.

    Casualties
    The Battle of Waterloo was one of the bloodiest in modern history. During the fighting of June 18, French casualties totaled about 40,000, British and Dutch about 15,000, and Prussian about 7000; at one point about 45,000 men lay dead or wounded within an area of 8 sq km (3 sq mi). Additional thousands of casualties were suffered by both sides during the three-day campaign that preceded the final battle.
    What do you think? Did Napoleon have any chance against allied armies, and what would happen if he miracelously won?

    OK, here's URL
    Waterloo

    Although I'd always recommend wikipedia. :original:
    Last edited by Chief LE; June 09, 2005 at 04:27 AM. Reason: Adding link

  2. #2

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    Very interesting, quotes are fine, and you referenced your source, but it would be nice if you add the URL. it could be a good place to learn about historical things.

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  3. #3
    O'brien the Protector's Avatar Lord of the Mannequins
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    Napolean did have a cahnce to in, if it wasent for the weather and if his general ( i gorget his name) came to the battle at the right time. But only with napoleans corps, no I dont think he couldve of efeated welington ( welington made his entire career around that type of defense 9 on the crest of a hilll, protecting most of his men from barbordement, and giving his front line troops the most proteciton while they can stil fire at the enemy).
    if he had won that battle, it would hvae prorobly given him time to go back to paris and raise another army. I dont hink he would ahve reconqered europe though, espeically considering that after hius defeat how quickly many naitnos adopted to the new styl3es of warfare ( prussia).
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  4. #4

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    A lot of apologists for Napoleon make much of his supposed ill health, and the fact that he left most of the generalling on the day to his subordinates. This ignores the fact that:
    a) he chose to fight on that day
    b) The battle happened right in front of him, and he could easily have acted to prevent certain movements (such as the disasterous cavalry attack unsupported by infantry on the British squares).

    Napoleon himself erred in massing only 124,000 men before Charleroi when he might easily have marshaled more by drawing on reserve troops left in secondary positions.
    This was still far more than the Allied army that opposed him at the start of the day. Napoleon made a lot of excuses for the defeat: the other Generals, fictional thousands of Allied troops, but when it comes down to it, it was his choice to attack, with Grouchy or not.

    Even If he won Waterloo, he could'nt have taken on Europe. All of his veterens from the previous campaigns were dead. France didn't have the manpower to continue a sustained war.

  5. #5
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    One explanation for Napolean's actions was that he was trying to capture Brussels, which he would subsequently use as a bargaining chit, in order to secure European acceptance of his return to power in France. Seems like a pretty desperate plan to me. I don't think the allies, especially Britain, would have accepted it, but you never know.

  6. #6
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthJames
    A lot of apologists for Napoleon make much of his supposed ill health, and the fact that he left most of the generalling on the day to his subordinates. This ignores the fact that:
    a) he chose to fight on that day
    b) The battle happened right in front of him, and he could easily have acted to prevent certain movements (such as the disasterous cavalry attack unsupported by infantry on the British squares).


    This was still far more than the Allied army that opposed him at the start of the day. Napoleon made a lot of excuses for the defeat: the other Generals, fictional thousands of Allied troops, but when it comes down to it, it was his choice to attack, with Grouchy or not.

    Even If he won Waterloo, he could'nt have taken on Europe. All of his veterens from the previous campaigns were dead. France didn't have the manpower to continue a sustained war.
    Not all of Boneys veterans were dead. A lot were there at the battle; in fact it was Wellington who had the disadvantage in terms of quality of troops. Still his best troops (e.g. the cold stream guards) were equal to any man in the French Imperial guard.

    It boils down to the fact that despite Napoleon have more men plus better quality of men, he was out generalled by Wellington.

  7. #7

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    It boils down to the fact that despite Napoleon have more men plus better quality of men, he was out generalled by Wellington.
    Wellington was playing a purely defensive role in the battle. He didn't need superior numbers to do that. The battle only turned in his favor thanks to the arrival of the Prussians. Even then Napoleon was on the verge of victory for a moment.

  8. #8
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    When the Prussians arrived Wellington had routed the old guard which caused the French to flee. It was a close fought battle but Wellington knew what he doing. He has men on ridge which along with the damp ground protected them from French artillery.

    Really Boney should have sent his old guard in earlier to try and break Wellington’s middle. But even that is not even guaranteed to work as we already know the old guard were not quite as elite as people previously thought they were.

    The worst point in the battle was when the allies lost La Hayte Saint and the French were able to move there artillery up along with their infantry to support their cavalry. I read somewhere that one whole regiment got killed and they laid there dead on the battlefield in the square in which they stood.

    Even with hindsight I couldn’t do what Wellington done and defeat Napoleon. The guy really knew how to protect his men and was a master of terrain to his advantage. All this plus the draw back of having raw recruits and fewer numbers then Napoleon, its quite remarkable how he lasted all that time.

  9. #9

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    When the Prussians arrived Wellington had routed the old guard which caused the French to flee. It was a close fought battle but Wellington knew what he doing. He has men on ridge which along with the damp ground protected them from French artillery.
    Napoleon only threw his Imperial Guard in after the Prussians were beating him on the right flank, and they managed to advance a good deal before the British could finally break the attack.

    Really Boney should have sent his old guard in earlier to try and break Wellington’s middle. But even that is not even guaranteed to work as we already know the old guard were not quite as elite as people previously thought they were.
    They seemed pretty elite to me. They broke the first line of the British, took artillary fire, a point blank attack from the British elites while outnumbered, and finally another surprise attack before finally breaking.

    Even with hindsight I couldn’t do what Wellington done and defeat Napoleon. The guy really knew how to protect his men and was a master of terrain to his advantage. All this plus the draw back of having raw recruits and fewer numbers then Napoleon, its quite remarkable how he lasted all that time.
    It's not remarkable at all when one takes into account terrain, and the fact that he was fighting a purely defensive manuever, and the fact that Napoleon wasn't even present for all the battle. I don't even think you could say Wellington won the day, since it was only the attack by the Prussians that really got them victory.

  10. #10

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    When the Prussians arrived Wellington had routed the old guard which caused the French to flee.
    There has been a lot of controversy over the battle of Waterloo in recent years, and the reason is precisely this. Did Wellington beat Napoleon with the Prussians arriving just in time for the pursuit, or did the Prussians arrive on the battlefield much earlier and perhaps even save Wellington from defeat?

    English historian Peter Hofschröer has written several books and articles on this, and he's basing them on original research in both English and German sources. His position is that Wellington knowingly altered the facts in his reports, and that the Prussians did in fact arrive much earlier. Their attack on Plancenoit (in Napoleon's right rear) drew off most of the imperial guard, leaving Wellington to face a much smaller attack at the end of the battle than he would have otherwise.

    The debate continues and other historians have accused Hofschröer of contrarianism and what have you (he in turn has accused them of shoddy research and nonexistent second language skills), but I think he makes a pretty good case.

  11. #11

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    The Imperial Guard, incidentally, did not actually break and retreat--but they made a strategic withdrawal. That alone was so surprising that it confused the rest of the French army.

    Napoléon would have won Europe with Waterloo. With Brussels gone and the British pushed into the sea, Prussia would have lost most of its power with Blucher. It would be a simple matter to isolate Austria and Russia and force them to sue for a negotiated peace. The coalitions could only beat the French when they attacked as one.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iaius Statius Laurentius
    The Imperial Guard, incidentally, did not actually break and retreat--but they made a strategic withdrawal. That alone was so surprising that it confused the rest of the French army.

    Napoléon would have won Europe with Waterloo. With Brussels gone and the British pushed into the sea, Prussia would have lost most of its power with Blucher. It would be a simple matter to isolate Austria and Russia and force them to sue for a negotiated peace. The coalitions could only beat the French when they attacked as one.
    Brits driven into the sea and Prussia defeated? Waterloo would not of signified that at all.

    Simple to defeat Autria and Russia? It wasn't 1805. 1814 showed that France could not defeat the combined powers of the Allies. The Allies new they could defeat Napoleon. Even if he'd won at Waterloo there were what about another 600,000 Allied troops marching on France?
    ...but I think Germany with home advantage will raise their game as always for the big ones and win the title. Post #260

  13. #13

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    Waterloo was the last battle fought to prevent the French from taking Brussels, which would have meant that they lost their only safe harbor in that area.

    Indeed, that's precisely what I said, sir. France could not defeat the combined powers--which was why Waterloo was important. Taking the British and the Prussians out of the picture would have allowed France to take on Austria and Russia. One must also not neglect the political situation: France was defeated at Waterloo because the Council of Elders called for Napoléon's head. They were upset at his defeat. Similarly, the Pitt Administration was constantly lambasted in Britain for its refusal to accept any sort of peace.

    This isn't a situation of total war here. This is the nineteenth century.

  14. #14
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iaius Statius Laurentius
    The Imperial Guard, incidentally, did not actually break and retreat--but they made a strategic withdrawal. That alone was so surprising that it confused the rest of the French army.

    Napoléon would have won Europe with Waterloo. With Brussels gone and the British pushed into the sea, Prussia would have lost most of its power with Blucher. It would be a simple matter to isolate Austria and Russia and force them to sue for a negotiated peace. The coalitions could only beat the French when they attacked as one.
    I’ve read articles by Napoleon apologists before, but really takes the biscuit!

    You know if the old guard (I believe it was the old guard arm of the imperial guard the young and middle guard was sent to delay the Prussians), had held its nerve they could have broke the British line and Wellington would be the one the looking for a strategic withdrawal.

    Mind you the pounding those poor bastards took would have mean by the time they had reached the line they would have been so baldy beaten Napoleon would have a old guard left to fight any future battles. With that situation in mind of shades of the charge of the Light Brigade comes to bear.

  15. #15

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    I think the final attack on Wellington's centre was by the Old and part of the Middle Guard. The Young and most of the Middle Guard had been sucked into the fight for Plancenoit, which is why Napoleon had to commit the bearskinned boys against Wellington. Most of the French army fled at the end of the battle, but I'm pretty sure the Old Guard formed square and retreated in good order after they had fled down or retreated down (depending on your choice of national bias) the slope of Mont St Jean.

    The part played by the Allied troops is another Waterloo controversy. The Dutch and Belgians along with their commander, the Prince of Orange, have been slandered in most accounts.

    However recent research suggests they performed a lot better than British historians have given them credit for, both at Quatre Bras (where they held off the French until the British arrived fairly late in the day) and at Waterloo (where the Nassauers held Hougomont and the Belgians played an important part in beating the attack of the Old Guard). The Nassauers were Peninsula veterans and many of the Belgians were veterans of Napoleon's Grande Armée. They were not the useless cannon fodder (at best) or cowards (at worst) that historians have traditionally suggested.

  16. #16
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Can someone tell me why did the old guard march to the British line? If you watch the film Waterloo the French march at a steady pace to the British guns. If they ran they could have closed the gap much quicker and not taken nearly as many casualties.

  17. #17

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    On the topic of the role played by the allied troops in the battle, especially the Prussians, there is an interesting little book called "Wellington's Smallest Victory" by the same Peter Hofschroer which tells of the story of a contemporary model maker who put together a scale model of the battlefield and the soldiers on it at the height of the battle and the incredible pressue he was placed under by none other than the Duke of Wellington to sideline the presence of the Prussians on the battlefield.

    Even the very name 'Waterloo' was very deliberately chosen by Wellington. The village of Waterloo wasn't even really on the battlefield, but it was where Wellington slept the night before and night after. He and Blücher met for the first time that day at the village of La Belle Alliance that had been at the centre of the French line and Blücher suggested that for the battle's name. Wellington however insisted upon the oddly English name of Waterloo - and from then and since was determined to show it as a British victory rather than an allied victory.

    It really is a fascinating battle to read about and not at all done justice by the film despite all the well-intentioned effort they put into it.

  18. #18

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    No "Old Guard" Infantry (1st and 2nd Grenadiers or Chasseurs) were involved in that failed, final assault. Yes he committed the 3rd and 4th Grenadiers (who were the "Middle Guard", not the Old Guard).It is a source of confusion.
    Any allied units that had the arrogance to attack the Grumblers were cuffed aside and they retired their Colours in very good order.

    EDIT: Oh and I agree completely le Tondu should have committed the the Guard en masse before his line infantry were spent. Ideally supported by the Heavy Cavalry of the Guard , but they were tragically wasted in Ney's cavalry assault on the center.
    Last edited by OG Grenadier; August 11, 2005 at 10:27 PM. Reason: Content
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  19. #19

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    Can someone tell me why did the old guard march to the British line? If you watch the film Waterloo the French march at a steady pace to the British guns. If they ran they could have closed the gap much quicker and not taken nearly as many casualties.
    They used dense formations in the Napoleonic era because of the difficulty of maintaining control.

    Smoothbore muskets only had an effective range of about 50 meters and produced enormous amounts of smoke, and the only means of communicating was shouting. If units spread out too much or moved too fast they would quickly lose cohesion and become impossible to control (and a disorganized unit was extremely vulnerable to cavalry or even a bayonet charge).

  20. #20

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    Indeed. Even a bayonet charge required considerable cohesion in the ranks on the outset, right up until the clash of arms. Of course, once under fire units had a tendency to step faster than those around them in an attempt to come to grips with the enemy. The dreadful consequences of Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg can largely be attributed to the lack of cohesion when closing with the Union lines.

    At Waterloo , the French were not expecting the cream of the British army to be waiting prone as they were. With the Foot Guard in front and the Light Infantry pouring volley fire into their flanks , the French staggered and finally broke. They lost their nerve and their impetus and as a result they failed in breaking the British center.
    "My God, I wish we had the 9th Australian Division with us this morning."
    - - Major-General Francis de Guingaund, Chief of Staff, Allied Land-Forces Headquarters Europe, D-Day, 1944

    "Australian troops had, at Milne Bay, inflicted on the Japanese their first undoubted defeat on land. Some of us may forget that, of all the allies, it was the Australians who first broke the invincibility of the Japanese army."
    — Field Marshal Sir William Slim.

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