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Thread: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

  1. #21

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Nobody seems to have mentioned that the shock inf are armor piercing.
    True, that they do but it didn't seem to help them in the test. Still I haven't played vanilla Rhun so I can't confirm or deny those results.

  2. #22

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    But ... but ... but

    The Loke units aren't really intended to act as individuals, isn't it? As far as I understand, they are meant to always fight with combined arms tactics.

    Archers shoot, enemy approaches, archers retreat behind the pikes.
    Pikes absorb the first blow.
    Cavalry operates on the left and right to counter any enemy flanking attempts.
    Archers resume shooting, this time at enemy ranged units.
    Shock infantry moves into the gap between the 'edges' of the pike formation and your now engaged cavalry.
    Shock infantry hits the enemy infantry's flank and / or rear.
    Simultaneously, the pikemen's defend stance is disabled, starting their advance as well.
    Enemy line is crushed from 3 (or 4, if your cavalry managed to pull an early win) sides and routs.
    Remaining cavalry take out what little enemy resistance is left.



    Now here is why the shock infantry is not useless: it is the only infantry unit that Rhûn has for flanking engaged infantry lines.

    Reason 1: All their other 'fast' (i.e. non-pike) infantry lacks the armor to do it, since, in my experience, anything trying to flank / rear the engaged lines without armor tends to get shot by enemy ranged infantry. Or lacks the punch to actually cause the intended rout.

    Reason 2: The pike units themselves are too slow / sluggish to pull off this move. First, because they will get shot to pieces before managing to make a difference. Second, because by the time they actually get to the flanking part, your engaged infantry will probably have taken unacceptable losses.

    The thing is that they're not useless, they're just suited for only 2 things. The first is flanking. The second, btw, is taking walls and wall breaches, for which the pikes are also too sluggish / inflexible.

    However when it comes to pure field tactics, one could wonder why you would use loke shock infantry (300 upkeep) and not the only slightly more expensive loke cavalry (390 upkeep) or even the cheaper Horse Guards (290 upkeep) to flank enemies. After all, even if they're charging at spearmen, they're still hitting the rear and sides.

  3. #23

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Well, I have recently, and victoriously, finished a Rhun campaign on vh/vh.
    To say the least, i was impressed by the performance of Rhun's units, as i was a bit skeptical at the beginning.
    All the Loke Rims units performed to my satisfaction.
    It's just a question of finding the right balance in the stack: I did usually placed 4 or 5 units of Loke archers behind the Loke pikes, flanked by the Loke shock troops, a pair of catapults at the back and the rest, Loke cataphracts.

    That combination served me extremely well most of the time, i was pleasantly surprised how effective it was against the dwarfs, which i peppered to exhaustion with fire arrows and balls of fire into their massed ranks, pinned them down with my infantry, and attack them from flanks and rear with the cataphracts until they routed (then mop up...)
    The race that gave me more of a challenge where the Silvan Elves with their superior archery and infantry, but i prevailed at the end by swamping them with numbers.

    So, in conclusion, Rhun has very good archers and cavalry, so make the most of those 2 assets, and victory is half way there!

  4. #24

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Nobody seems to have mentioned that the shock inf are armor piercing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
    True, that they do but it didn't seem to help them in the test. Still I haven't played vanilla Rhun so I can't confirm or deny those results.
    It indeed didn't help them which surprises me, knowing that those Uruks are heavily armored.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by Staffen View Post
    The Loke units aren't really intended to act as individuals, isn't it? As far as I understand, they are meant to always fight with combined arms tactics.

    Archers shoot, enemy approaches, archers retreat behind the pikes.
    Pikes absorb the first blow.
    Cavalry operates on the left and right to counter any enemy flanking attempts.
    Archers resume shooting, this time at enemy ranged units.
    Shock infantry moves into the gap between the 'edges' of the pike formation and your now engaged cavalry.
    Shock infantry hits the enemy infantry's flank and / or rear.
    Simultaneously, the pikemen's defend stance is disabled, starting their advance as well.
    Enemy line is crushed from 3 (or 4, if your cavalry managed to pull an early win) sides and routs.
    Remaining cavalry take out what little enemy resistance is left.



    Now here is why the shock infantry is not useless: it is the only infantry unit that Rhûn has for flanking engaged infantry lines.

    Reason 1: All their other 'fast' (i.e. non-pike) infantry lacks the armor to do it, since, in my experience, anything trying to flank / rear the engaged lines without armor tends to get shot by enemy ranged infantry. Or lacks the punch to actually cause the intended rout.

    Reason 2: The pike units themselves are too slow / sluggish to pull off this move. First, because they will get shot to pieces before managing to make a difference. Second, because by the time they actually get to the flanking part, your engaged infantry will probably have taken unacceptable losses.

    The thing is that they're not useless, they're just suited for only 2 things. The first is flanking. The second, btw, is taking walls and wall breaches, for which the pikes are also too sluggish / inflexible.

    However when it comes to pure field tactics, one could wonder why you would use loke shock infantry (300 upkeep) and not the only slightly more expensive loke cavalry (390 upkeep) or even the cheaper Horse Guards (290 upkeep) to flank enemies. After all, even if they're charging at spearmen, they're still hitting the rear and sides.

    Thanks for the very educative post Staffen. However, as you yourself stated, Loke-Cavalry way surpasses Loke-Shock infantry in flanking, therefore leaving only one function to the Shock Infantry: storm settlements. Which they do very well, and not least because their shields protect them from arrows while the slow moving Loke-Pikes get pierced by the arrow rain .

    This also produces the problem of creating balanced stacks. In a field battle I want to field a maximum of 2 units of Loke-Shock infantry whereas in a siege battle I want to have nearly half of the stack build from Shock Infantry. I ended up having 2 Shock Units, 5 Pikes, 5 Archers, 3 Catapults and 4 Cataprachts.


    Lastly, I would like to remake the last two questions of the thread:

    I noticed that turning the spear wall off didn't have any visual effect when the units were engaged. However, it caused my pikes to interrupt their own charge and lower their pikes(as in spear wall) just before hitting the enemy line. They still continued to attack from many lines as if they were in spear wall. However, having the spear wall turned off always caused me heavier casualties and resulted me to lose.

    1. Can someone explain this odd behaviour and the possible advantages of turning the spear wall off?


    2. Is there an advantage in the prone position of the pikes and what is it?
    Last edited by Smaug; June 21, 2009 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    I'll try to answer those questions. If I recall correctly:

    Put a unit of pikes in Guard Mode 4 ranks deep.

    With Spear wall on, the first three ranks will lower their spears.

    With Spear wall off, only the first two ranks will do so.

    This means that an enemy charging at your line will encounter more lowered pikes, thus sustain more casualties, with spear wall engaged.

    Therefore, as far as I know there is no advantage in turning off spear wall.

    And as you know, turning off Guard Mode when they are engaged will have them start franticly poking away at the enemy (whereas in guard mode they will mostly just try to keep them at a distance), thus starting to cause more casualties.

    When pikes are charging themselves, I don't know what's the best option. Never tried it.

  6. #26

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Thanks Staffen. In guard mode the first line goes to a prone position, does this have any concrete effects or is it just eye candy? What are the advantages of the guard mode then if:
    Quote Originally Posted by Staffen View Post
    when turning off Guard Mode when they are engaged will have them start franticly poking away at the enemy (whereas in guard mode they will mostly just try to keep them at a distance), thus starting to cause more casualties
    ?

  7. #27

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Quote Originally Posted by Kikka View Post
    ?
    Guard mode presents more pikes to the front, and is particularly devastating to cavalry charges. However in guard mode the pikes won't advance or fight back, just poke at those that come into range. I've found that one of the powers of pikemen is to receive the charge and then fight back, forcing the attackers back. However because the pikemen are advancing it could leave a vulnerable weak spot behind the pikemen and where the pikemen were in the line. If you were attacking then it's fine, but defending could be devastating if it happens. It's all about location location location!
    --- Theseus1234
    Suum cique (To each their own) -Motto of the Kingdom of Prussia

    The Crown of Aragon AAR- The Iberian Supremacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    My opinion is 100% objective. That's how I'm so right all the time.
    ^Human hubris knows no bounds.

  8. #28

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    Like Theseus said!

    And the prone position is eye candy. The thing that matters is how many pikes are pointing at the enemy.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    So to summerize, On impact against your pike wall use guard mode, after impact take off guard mode and the pikes will began destroying the enemy. Pikes are very helpfull if your on the defensive and are using the red line border "TACTIC".
    The AI is like a retarded overwieght child. He realy want all those fries, he just does not know how to get them. http://img1.coolspacetricks.com/imag...unny/81776.gif

  10. #30

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

    turning spearwall off, allows the unit to run! So they can get their chargebonus. All AP-units with spearwall, are quite good at killing stuff without spearwall. They become much more mobile.

    My dwarven Halberdmen are the unit i use most versatile. Hold the line in spearwall, fight of enemy unit, turn off spearwall, run, flank another still engaged unit, charge,...rout!

  11. #31

    Default Re: >>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) is useless!<<<

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil232 View Post
    Mordor does not have Uruk-Hai, they have Uruks, they are a larger breed of orce bread mostly by the which king at minas morgrul (in the third age anyway)
    That's how it is in the film. In the book it was Sauron who created Uruk-Hai and they were both in Sauron's and Saruman's armies. Since the mod is based both on the films and books, then I assume that the uruks available for purchase in Sauron's army in the mod are uruk-hai.

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