Northern Ireland - How to solve the problem

[Brian Boru]

OK so here is the situation. I'm not sure how many of you are aware of Irelands troubles but here is a very brief history:

- 1167 Arrival of British at Baginbun in Co. Wexford which initiated the struggle between the English and the Irish

- Reign of Rory O'Connor who was the last native High King of Ireland (1166-1175)
The Statutes of Kilkenny of 1388 forbade Irish/English marriages and prevented the English to use Irish language, custom or laws

- 1603 Accession of James 1 and the enforcement of English Law in Ireland

- 1606 Settlement of Scots in Ards Peninsula.
Land in six counties of Ulster consficated by English.

- 1641 Great Catholic-Gaelic rebellion for return of lands

- 1649 The Protestant Lord Protector of England, Oliver Cromwell, landed at Dublin. His troops killed 2,000 men and great part of Irish lands were confiscated and divided among the English.

- Ireland's population was reduced by two thirds during Cromwell's rule when the Irish were sent as slaves to work on plantations in the islands in the Caribbean

- 1690 William of Orange (William III) lands at Carrickfergus and defeats James II at Battle of the Boyne

- In 1695 Anti-Catholic Penal Laws were introduced
By the early 1700's Catholics hold just 7% of land in Ireland
Irish Revolution, the 'Young Ireland' rebellion, of 1798 failed

- 1845-49 The Irish Potato Famine. Many Irish emigrate to America. Irish population drops from 8 million to 6 million due to death from starvation or emigration

- 1914 - 1918 - First World War

-1916 Easter Rising in Dublin
Irish War of Independence against Great Britain - 1919-21 ending in the Anglo Irish Treaty
In the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Ireland was partitioned, with the unionist-dominated north east becoming Northern Ireland

-1922 - 1923 - Irish Civil War between the Free State army and IRA

- 1949 Republic of Ireland declared

- 1951-62 IRA campaign in Northern Ireland

- 1969 - British troops sent to Derry

- 1971 - Unionist government of NI introduces internment without trial for suspected Republicans

- 1994 IRA declares cease-fire

- 1998 Initial peace-plan, the Good Friday Agreement, accepted by all parties
Irish governments have sought the peaceful unification of Ireland and have cooperated with Britain against terrorist groups

I myself would like to see Ireland returned to the Irish from the British. I believe the people of Britain and Ireland should be allowed to vote on whether Britain should pull out of northern Ireland, creating a United Ireland, carry on occupying it or create a seperate country. What does anyone else think?

[The_Enigma]

They voted to stay in as the UK so keep them there.

[sfsff]

I think the IRA needs to get over it already... you won't win, so shut up.

[Decepticon]

like a comedian once said. Every catholic may baptise in case of emergency. So get youself a truck with a hose and start mass baptising everybody :p this way they will all be catholics and problem solved

[Slaxx Hatmen]

I think the Brits should pull out becuase they have no need for N.Ireland that i see is worth getting blown up or assasinated over. Its like the Roman retreat of, (ironicly)Britian. They had no need for the island anymore so they packed up and left. The Brits should do the same IMHO. Since nobdy in Ireland likes them there. It would do wonders for Eire aswell if the British leave.

[Brian Boru]

I think the IRA needs to get over it already... you won't win, so shut up.

Yeah good idea, just accept occupation and oppression. Jesus, you need to stop watching BBC news.

[Slaxx Hatmen]

Yeah good idea, just accept occupation and oppression. Jesus, you need to stop watching BBC news.

Agreed. :rollseyes(hey, the emoticon might be gone, but the emotion is still there!)

[Greek Fire 19]

Im northern Irish myself, I live in a town just outside belfast called newtownards, and honestly we get enough americans/british/irish/australians arriving to tell us how to resolve our differences and how to live in peace and harmony any love each other.

It's hard to explain to someone who isnt from here how two groups of people who share the same lifestyle, income, housing, language, dialect, social class and culture (and we do) can be so divided over something, i.e religion, that isn't even an issue for most people any more.

The truth is that we just are. It's become a self perpetuating thing that becomes a part of our identities at primary school and at home. We grow up inside what is, for want of a better term, a tribe. I don't want to overstate our differences with the rest of britain, we still shop in the same shops in belfast city centre. W've got Next and McDonalds and KFC and Argos and Marks and Spencers, most poeple have computers and good tvs and boradband internet. We're not backward.

Try to imagine it as two gigantic clubs or organisations we're most of us a member of from birth. It doesn't define who we are or what we believe, just who we tend to associate with or hang out with. There are far bigger differences in opinion between a rich moderate Unionist in a big house in bangor and a poor drug addict kid in an anorak who throws stones at the fenians than there are between that sad little drug addict and the equivalent in a celtic strip, but the two unionists are part of the same 'club.' The same goes for nationalists. It doesn't mean theyre both for a welfare state or lower taxes, it's just who they are. It's a big like a more extreme version of supporting two football teams (which in fact they do too, RFC and CFC) Its just a piece of you.

People still talk about differences between unionists and nationalists in terms of income or job prospects but that's outdated and in fact Northern Ireland is the only place where it's illegal for an employer to discrimintate agains someone on the grounds of their religion or political beliefs. Such prejudice is sueable.

We've tried consociationalism, we've tried power sharing,and honestly the only thing we've learned from it all is that it's only if we ourselves as individuals reach out beyond our little tribe and try to reach someone on 'the other side' which is something we've shown ourselves to be somewhat incapable of doing.

EDIT: If Northern Ireland was made part of Ireland without the express consent of the majority of people INSIDE Northern Ireland, the loyalist paramilitary groups would balloon in size and a civil war would break out. The Irish Military is not prepared or equipped for such a conflict which would cost more than such a small state could support and it would all get horribly horribly ugly.
That's why in 1997 as part of the good friday agreement the Irish Government altered article 3 of the Irish constitution, which had claimed sovereignity over the entire Island of Ireland, so it now guarantees that the Republic of Ireland will not occupy Northern Ireland unless the northern Irish people vote in a referendum to become part of the RoI. (they also changed it because it's the right thing to do. I have a lot of respect for Irish politicians and Fianna Fail in particular.)

Therefore a vote of Irish and British people would now be meaningless.

[CrayonVonCaesar]

Once upon a time, many great republicans were also protestant. Im from the north too, on the north coast, but honestly most people up here don't give a rats hole about these 'troubles'. It's a tiny bitter group that creates the problem. Like your man said, its like two football teams rival supporters, a load of nonsense. Why is the Rev.P still alive i ask you WHYYY. Old goat just keeps living.

[Brian Boru]

The only reason he is still alive IMHO is because hes an embarrasement to the Unionists. Hes a great PR boost for the Republicans to the rest of the world.

[Tyr]

Reconquer Ireland and adminastor protestant English regime. Problem solved. If terrorism is good enough reson to go to war with Afghanistan and Iraq, its good enough reason to kill the IRA, and conquer Ireland

[Brian Boru]

Reconquer Ireland and adminastor protestant English regime. Problem solved. If terrorism is good enough reson to go to war with Afghanistan and Iraq, its good enough reason to kill the IRA, and conquer Ireland

Good point, maybe the Irish Army should invade Northern Ireland and "kill" the Ulster Freedom Fighters and all the other protestant loyalist groups??

[crazyluke]

I see that the majority of people have voted for a united Ireland. Are these the same people who say they are against oppression and occupation? The fact is that the majority of people in Northern Ireland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom.

What really irritates me is that so many people who live outside of Northern Ireland think that this is a matter of religion and decide they'd all like a go at interfering. A very small part of it is religion, but really, it is, to use Greek Fire 19's term, tribal. The two sides (unionist/loyalist and nationalist/republican) are brought up in some communities to distrust and dislike each other. This is further compounded by the use of derogatory slang such as fenian, hun, prod, taig etc.

The troubles, however, are over. As Greek Fire 19 said, we are indeed the only UK province to have laws against racial discrimination in job oppurtunities (Equal Opportunities(sp?) Act and Racial Discrimination Order). Don't change things from how they are now. Paramilitary violence is at an all time low. The Troubles are over. Just last year we came very close to IRA decomissioning(sp?), but because of Ian Paisley(senior) that was all flushed down the crapper due to one lousy photo (or lack thereof).

On a sidenote, two things that do need done are the investigations of the PUP and Sinn Fein (for involvement with paramilitaries).

And in case you were wondering, I myself live in East Belfast near the city centre.

[Greek Fire 19]

I agree entirely with crazyluke, the issue is more clouded than it may seem to those with little first hand understanding of our strange little province. I'd like to say we have more intelligence and understanding of our own situation than those outside Northern ireland give us credit for, but then again, with the recent election results and a DUP and SF landslide.....Im less sure.

Anyway, with a name like crazyluke and an address like inner east belfast Im afraid you will be forever associated in my mind with red hand luke from the hit northern Ireland comedy show give my head some peace (our own little attempt as satire, for those fortunate enough to live elsewhere)

[Brian Boru]

The fact is that the majority of people in Northern Ireland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom.

The majority is so small its not even worth calling it a majority. I cant remember exactly but its by a few percent. I think you have to look at the whole Island of Ireland not just the north. Someone living in Galway for example would still be concerned about whats happening in the north, its their country too dont forget.

[Greek Fire 19]

No it isnt, it's ours. Like I said earlier The Republic Government, because they're democratic and generally good people, changed their constitution so even they will only accept the results of a referendum if it is held only in the North

Annnnd, as is required in Ireland, the decision to change the constitution was put to the people of the republic of Ireland as part of the GFA package and they ratified it by 93%, so theres no huge mandate for unification there.

EDIT: Im beginning to get a little big annoyed about this. First of all, people outside Ireland seem to have the impression that Ireland is all one country. Its not. It's all one Island, but two entirely *totally* distinct countries. We don't talk like southern irish people, we dont watch Irish TV, we don't vote in Irish Elections, we share no government body with Ireland.

Please don't read out of that that I want that, I try to stay neutral on these sort of issues (reflex response, has kept me out of trouble so far, if in doubt agree with the guy with the most tattoos)

Im allllso getting a big annoyed about the title. Personally while our society is a bit of a mess it's still our society and most of us would appreciate being allowed to sort it out for ourselves rather than being lectured to by well meaning but condascending foreigners. Wouldn't you?

[Freddie]

It’s been said before the people voted to remain British so it’s not even a debate. Democracy should always win over terrorism.

[Greek Fire 19]

If you're curious I have the results of a census about the majority in Northern Ireland

http://members.lycos.co.uk/socialist...oSinnFein.html

As you see the majority is not as close as Brian Boru believes.

The relevant passage is:

The Facts

A closer examination of the census results reveals what is really going on in terms of demographic change in Northern Ireland. It is true that the Catholic population continues to grow faster than the Protestant; that there is a net inward immigration of Catholics; that the Catholic population is younger; and that the Protestant population is older and has a higher death rate. However, despite these trends, the Protestant population still has a substantial majority. The gap between the two communities is estimated to be around 200,000. In terms of the voting population the gap is even wider. Currently 41 per cent of this population is Catholic. On the basis of the latest census figures this percentage will only have risen to 46 per cent by 2021. Even if you assume that all Catholics support a united Ireland, there still won’t be a majority for a united Ireland within the next twenty years.

Although there is a higher Catholic birth rate this is a trend that is long past its peak of the early eighties. Most of these people are currently enrolled in secondary schools were the current Catholic share of enrolment is 51.5 per cent. However since the 1980’s the birth rates of the two communities have been converging. In primary schools the Catholic share of enrolment is about half. If birth rates continue to converge the Catholic percentage in primary schools is likely to fall back below 50 per cent. This would mean that there would never be a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland. In the long term the census results point towards a stabilising of the religious balance of the population, with Protestants continuing to constitute a majority, albeit a smaller one than in the past.

[sfsff]

Yeah good idea, just accept occupation and oppression. Jesus, you need to stop watching BBC news.

There is no oppression. Who brainwashed you? It's just two religious fundamentalist groups fighting over a petty issue: said religion.

[crazyluke]

The majority is so small its not even worth calling it a majority. I cant remember exactly but its by a few percent. I think you have to look at the whole Island of Ireland not just the north. Someone living in Galway for example would still be concerned about whats happening in the north, its their country too dont forget.

Um actually Northern Ireland belongs to the Northern Irish people, not the southern Irish.

You admit yourself that the majority of Northern Ireland wants to remain part of the UK. It may be a small majority, but would you have the minority rule?

Brian Boru you sound like someone from Sinn Fein, wanting the southern Irish people to hold sway over our province.

Oh yea and I know about red hand Luke yea other people call me that too.

OT: Favourite red hand Luke quote: "The last things I remembers is eatin' some of yer kwish, then wakin' up in the penguin enclosure!" (to Uncle Andy)