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Thread: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0! (Outdated, see Download Thread)

  1. #121

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Tidy looking unit cards! Excellent in fact!! I am beginning to salivate at the prospect of the end product! And whilst I know it will be painful to take more turns turfing out the troops, I completely agree that it will put a far more serious edge on the game. I do know it's for my own good! And it sounds top!

    @Lord of Pendor - Try a wipe and complete re-install, mate. My first BoA freaked and I felt cheated, but the second attempt is running A-1. Probably another gift from Vista, but I had to try again as I was after Takeda too! Always feel obliged to try and settle that Nagashino score!

  2. #122

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Hey I'll talk more later tonight, just a quick reply. We added a Mori Naginata Cavalry skin for the Mori Daimyo Bodyguard, and Helloween also helped me get the Ikko-Ikki mercs working properly... I somehow didn't compress one of the files so that explains the problems. A full stack of Ikko-Ikki Merc Archers on large setting wont cause a crash anymore ^^. I'm waiting for the final descriptions and unit card files from Helloween while tweaking the unit balance... I do realize it will take several tries to get the units balanced just right but they should be alot closer now. The biggest challenge with unit balance in BoA is the double HP for all units. This shifts the emphasis in game on unit numbers, formation, and attack values, especially with unit defense being so high. Thus it is a bit tricky to properly balance some of the high end "elite" units, which have smaller numbers but should be more powerful. I also need to find the point where morale is too high... some units in game have such high morale that they will NEVER retreat, even if they have the captain in their squad. This isn't necessarily unrealistic, but right now nearly every elite unit is that way, which is a bit too much IMO.

    As for Korean invasions, that is beyond me you would need to find someone else who can make the map and family trees and the such. My knowledge is by and large limited to Japan from 12th Century to modern times, Europe, and Three Kingdoms China. I only know the basics of what happened in Toyotomi's invasion of Korea, and virutally nothing about 16th Century Korean/Chinese culture, geography, or politics. Even though I do follow all the news about North Korea these days, I still couldn't point out major Korean cities or territories on the map.

    Otherwise, doing a Korean Campaign is a bit difficult to properly simulate. How does Toyotomi win? Conquering the Korean penninsula in and of itself is nice, but its meaningless if he can't do something about the Chinese. Sure he could hold off Chinese armies as they did historically, but any conquest of Korea is temporary at best if Toyotomi cannot force China to give up on retaking it... and considering the size of China's forces that wont happen simply by fighting off a few armies. Toyotomi intended to seize China as well, so you'd probably need a good part of Eastern China on the map, as well as at least half of Japan including Kyoto. Bringing in China of course also means bringing in other groups which pressured China. Anyhow this is all speculation, but I think if you really want a realistic Korean Campaign you need an entirely new mod focused on that particular part of the Sengoku Era. Just my 2 cents.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Hell-o everyone... The Good Look Mod with all the goodies I made in a past few weeks is released. See the release thread:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=279861

    As to the Invasion of Korea: I suppose, if someone will create a map of the Far East with China, Korea, Mongolia and Japan on it, it will be not a problem to shift the campaign there — since we have the unit base and there are enough sources on these countries during the sixteenth century that are available on the internet...

    Another, easier solution would be just adding a few provinces of the Korean peninsula to the top of the current Japanese map — similarly to the France and Norway in Viking Invasions. It worked there, why not here?

    Bonus screenshot — new Mori Hatamoto unit charging:



    See ya!

  4. #124

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Helloween,

    Now that's MAGIC!!! Beautiful cards, proper titles, and oh so easy to install... this addition seriously helps my immersion in what has become a top-notch mod!

    I dunno what this "+rep" stuff is I keep seeing, but if it is mine to give then I think you people are seriously deserving! Big thanks again to the BoA team and Alex, but some serious follow-up thanks to Hayami and Helloween - and long may that alliance live!!

    Finally, Korea-wise, my (unasked for! - Sorry!) opinion is that I ain't too sure! I think the detail that you are bringing to BoA would be hard to replicate for Korea, which was in many ways a sprawling disaster for Hideyoshi over about 6 years. From what I recall, the Korean occupation was illconceived, uneasy and uncertain at best, and it might also be tough to hit a realistic balance, as sea battles played a big part (Admiral Yi stuck at least five major defeats on the Japanese fleets, seriously changing the invasion plan). Not sure I have all that correct, and I suppose rebels and pirates could be spawned to replicate some of this, but I for one am happy with what we have brewing!

    Thanks again!

  5. #125

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    You are correct. Initially Toyotomi's invasion of Korea was successful, but he didn't plan very well for eventualities. A big part of the plan included avoiding the Korean navy, which was vastly superior to the Japanese navy. Japanese ships weren't designed for war on the open seas and they knew it, they didn't stand a chance to a naval power like Korea, especially with the Korean turtle ships which were arguably the best ships in the world at that time. Eventually the Korean Navy caught up to them, and that was that. As you said there is no real way to properly simulate the naval battles of the time.

  6. #126
    Hound of Ulster's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Wow...awesome screenshot.

    Concerning Korea...a good place for sources would be wikipedia, but I'm not sure if Osprey has volume on the Korean military at the time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty
    Last edited by Hound of Ulster; July 23, 2009 at 08:27 PM.
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

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  7. #127

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound of Ulster View Post
    Wow...awesome screenshot.

    Concerning Korea...a good place for sources would be wikipedia, but I'm not sure if Osprey has volume on the Korean military at the time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty
    I have the "Samurai Invasion: Japan's Korean War 1592-98" by Stephen Turnbull - it's not Osprey, it's Cassell, here's a fragment:

    The Korean army was therefore very primitive by Japanese standards, and this was further reflected in its equipment. The basic design of a suit of Korean armour consisted of a three-quarter-length heavy coat worn over an inner garment that resembled a divided apron, with trousers and leather boots. By the Koryŏ Period lamellar armour had been introduced, the lamellae being added either to the outside of the coat or inside it, or stitched inside the lining. The final version was the studded coat, whereby the heads of rivets, which held in place small plates inside the armour, protruded from its outside surface to give an appearance very similar to brigandine. Officers would also sport a bright coloured sash or belt over coats of red or blue, but the usual appearance for most wearers was of dull brown fabric of cotton or hemp.

    The Korean helmet consisted of a simple rounded conical bowl made from four main pieces riveted together and secured round the brow. A neck guard of lamellae or brigandine was suspended from it in three sections, and decoration in the form of feathers could be flown from the helmet point. Officers' helmets could be lacquered black and ornamented with gold and fur. Korean foot soldiers wore no armour at all, just their traditional white clothes with a sleeveless black jacket and a belt, but a felt hat gave some small protection in battle.

    Many Korean swords were two-edged, straight-bladed weapons, although curved swords like Japanese katana were also made, and actual Japanese models were imported. By contrast, Korean polearms showed considerable Chinese influence. Their use was most prized from the back of a horse, so we see cavalrymen armed with tridents, long straight spears and glaives with heavy curved blades much wider than a Japanese naginata. Unique to Korea, however, was the flail, a rounded hardwood stick, painted red and four feet long, to which was attached a shorter and heavier mace-like shaft studded with iron nails or knobs. The attachment was provided by a short length of chain. The flail was highly regarded, and successful candidates for the military examinations had to gallop along a trench and knock over a certain number of artificial heads. Foot soldiers were armed with all the above varieties of polearm except the flail.

    Prowess at archery was also greatly valued, and the celebrated Admiral Yi Sun-sin was an accomplished archer. The ordinary Korean bow was a composite reflex bow, made from mulberry wood, bamboo, water buffalo horn and cow sinew spliced together. It had a pronounced negative curve, against which the bow had to be pulled in order to string it. A Japanese source from the time of the 1592 invasion claims that Korean bows were the one thing in which the Koreans were superior to the Japanese, because their range was 500 yards against the Japanese longbow's range of 350 yards.

    The one thing the Korean army could be really proud of was its artillery. In addition to the cannon that were mounted on Korean warships or on the walls of castles, an army in the field could boast multiple rocket launchers firing volleys of steel-tipped arrows or darts, which were devastating against close formation troops if timed correctly. Otherwise it lacked armoured infantry, long spears and arquebuses, as well as proper organisation, combat experience, trained officers and a clear chain of command, and this was an army that was to face an invasion by one of the contemporary world's most sophisticated military machines.
    Say, we can use the existing Ming units to make their Korean counterparts, like the Guan Dao cavalry... All the current elite Ming units in BoA are Korean anyway.

    Chosŏn map:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Just take these regions, along with capitals, and add them to the top of the current map... No need to worry about the naval battles — they were never done properly in a TW game: even in Empire, they are still poor.

    To simulate the Korean superiority at the sea we can just give them better ships from the vanilla. Maybe even several variants, like a simple ship and an elite one. Since there are no in-game models for them, my descriptions and infopics will give the full picture of what they are.

    We can also ask the people of "Blue Lotus: Total War" (from which the "Battles of Asia" already borrows some models) to use some of their Korean stuff. They are a fantasy mod (dragons, demons, undead and kamikaze units), but they also have many models suitable for our period.

    P.S. I'll look for a few more books on the subject.

  8. #128
    Hound of Ulster's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    I forget that Turnbull did some work on the invasion by Japan

    Nice map
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

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  9. #129

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Well theres one problem with that, the campaign map has a number of hard limits, the most significant one being water. From what I read in the Ran no Jidai forums, the map of Japan likely already is near the limit of water you can have on the map, and considering several key rivers are missing on the campaign map I'm guessing it is at the max. If thats the case, then there is no way to add Korea into this map. You will instead have to create a new one, with much fewer Japanese provinces... which is why I think you need a separate mod or at least a separate campaign for Toyotomi's invasion of Korea.

    Still, you can try it out if it works on the current map that would be cool. I'll talk to you more soon Helloween

  10. #130
    Hound of Ulster's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Why not add Kyushu and the Ryukyus?
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

    'Killing is Negotiating' A militiaman in 'Blackhawk Down'

  11. #131

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Well, we can at least try to add Korea to this map... And I didn't mean with realistic proportions — you can place it closer, so not much more new water would be needed. I don't want a separate mod for the invasions: too much hassle for such a small timeframe.

    There is still an old option of adding Japan to the East Asia map with China, Korea and Mongolia already in place; and it shouldn't really need the reduction of Japanese provinces, as province limit is around 200. As to water — I thought the problem is with land-to-water ratio, not the overall amount of it... Adding some land should even it up.

    Are there any volunteers to try expanding a map?

    Edit:

    I don't think we should start on it now, as having a good STW-like campaign is my top concern...

    Even with a complete lack of team and support, we two (me and Hayami) should set the campaign straight much earlier than anyone will release any other Sengoku Jidai mod — in any TW game. Still, after we finish fixing it, the mod needs somewhere to go to. Since there are already resources for China, Korea and Mongolia, expanding the campaign to the whole East Asia of the period should be a natural way... And doing the sole Korea can be a first step, which is quite bearable for the two people.
    Last edited by Helloween; July 25, 2009 at 07:45 AM.

  12. #132
    Reverend Scott's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    It's great to see so much thought and effort going into refining and expanding this mod. I absolutely encourage any and all expansion into other areas and (time periods) of Asia! I will play and enjoy them all.
    Not to argue with anyone, but in my humble opinion, a great place to start adding to the campaign would be including Kublai Kahn's futile attempts to invade Japan in 1274 and 1281.
    I have two reasons for this:
    1.) No new maps would be needed, just new Mongol units and scripts.

    2.)It would make sense since Mongol Invasions was the original C.A. expansion for Shogun: Total War.

    And that's my two cents . Keep up the great work, gentlemen.
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  13. #133

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Yet that would require a new campaign, wouldn't it? And new units, yet we have no modeler... While the Korea does not require either.

    But yes, it does make sense: both because the Shogun units can be used as the base of the roster (we have Chinese Chu-Ko-Nu, which can be reskinned for the Ashigaru crossbowmen, while other Japanese units are already in; RTW got animations for the javelins and pikes of the era, yet not for the 16th century Korean weapons); and because of decently available sources for the time period, both on Mongols and Japanese.

    Still, the Mongols either require a base in Korea to transport the troops from, or it will be done by weird STW-like scripting thingy with magically appearing reinforcements — which I never liked.

    I suppose the extra campaigns can be done by anyone, while the map and units require some skills... So, the map with both Japan and Korea should allow two extra campaigns, without excessive scripting as well.

  14. #134

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayami Kagemusha View Post
    This work is beautiful... are drawings by hand?, who did?... congratz anyway, and hold the line

  15. #135

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Quote Originally Posted by Helloween View Post
    The pictures are taken from various Osprey books: most are from illustrations by Angus McBride, although there are also several by Wayne Reynolds, Howard Gerrard and Richard Hook... Cut out, resized, retouched, brightened, sharpened, properly alphaed and put into the game by me.
    From this thread:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=279861

    P.S.

    Damn it, I am quoting myself... Again!

  16. #136
    hip63's Avatar Give me some BASS!
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Created an installer for this:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=282715

    hip63

  17. #137
    Hound of Ulster's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    tried to run the Mori, but had CTD while loading a battle with the Rebels in Kyushu.

    I think this mod doesn't like me
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  18. #138

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Ah sorry, the rebels CTD was my fault, I noticed it a while back and have fixed it for the current release, but I can't give you the file without giving all the new/updated units as well. For the time being you're going to either need to autoresolve all battles against the rebels or create a new, temporary entry for the rebel textures in the descr_model_battles file. In particular, the rebel samurai to katana and rebel yari cavalry will cause crashes, and the foot archers have the wrong texture (though it did work for me anyways even before I fixed it).

    News on the cavalry problem, with the help of various people on the forums I do believe I've resolved the issue... I actually feel kinda stupid for not figuring it out on my own it was rather simple. I'm going to need to test it a bit more to make sure it works, but otherwise its fixed. Now just need the other 5 captain textures, and I need to add agents into the descr_strat file and I'll be ready for the first major release... which should be entirely bug free and addresses almost every element of the campaign. Once this is done, the only major things left will be making the rebels more realistic, giving them their own textures, creating and implementing the remaining mercenary units, and balancing/editing/describing all the buildings. Of course, I plan to continue to tweak various things like epithets, family trees, unit balance, starting forces, etc.

  19. #139

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    Hey, Kagemusha! How are my textures? I mean, visually — give some feedback... Captains, Sōhei and the alternate Naginata cavalry: so I'll fix them if something's wrong.

    I was busy for a few days: ran all over the city guitar shops (not that it's over, the battle has just begun), took a rest, was at birthday party — now need to rest again.

    Do the strat map adjustments; I'll make the remaining captain textures. Are they working any better with the Daimyō model?

    P.S.

    25 posts! 25 posts is what it takes to be able to give away rep points... Finally repped you, then had spread it some more between around 5 guys here: in order to be able to give one more to you.

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    You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
    Last edited by Helloween; August 02, 2009 at 04:01 AM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Sub-mod: Campaign for BoA 2.0!

    ... Sounds like Christmas is coming early this year!
    "Who is the king of earthly kings, the greatest giver of gold and rings?"

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