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Thread: Does Medicine Hurt Evolution?

  1. #1
    Carousel's Avatar Need help? Ask me! Hit PM
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    Guys I had a thought yesterday (yes, just one :lol )

    I was washing my hands and I realised I was effectively 'protecting myself' from disease. However, when we become ill, our bodies fight the disease and once it has succeeded it installs 'markers' that help initiate a quick response in the event of future infection. My first question is this: would it not be better that I initially catch this disease now, whilst I am in my prime and healthy and able to resist it, than when I am old - potentially giving a normally non-lethal disease the chance to kill me?

    I am all for hygiene, but nature has it's own safety systems when it comes to dealing with disease. Should we really tamper with this?

    To lead onto my next point, if I was to contract a fatal disease and subsequently die (duh) then is that not nature's natural selection? The very basis of our theories on evolution? Are we effectively stopping evolution in it's tracks?

    Every day doctors save people from potentially fatal diseases. Is evolution being allowed to work here? Aren't we messing up the whole process?

    Admittedly I have done zilch research on this. That however was intentional, I want you guys to surprise me. Perhaps we shall see some rivalry not seen since the God V Godless series of debates :grin

    Some ground rules:

    - Sources are not necessary although it can do nothing to harm your case.
    - Opinions alone are certainly welcome
    - Please no ethical arguements about 'We simply can't just let people die', I only want to examine the impact we are having on evolution, I'm not suggesting we close the hospitals :lol

    Discuss.....
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  2. #2

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    Good thought.

    IMO I think that the effect on evolution is limited, if not allowing evolution to progress more rapidly.

    I'm a high school student, not a scientist or doctor but it makes sense to me that if someone did have a disease or virus that if left alone would kill him/her and they are then saved by medicine/science, then that human would have a chance to pass on his/her genes and the offspring would be more immune to the disease.

    Just basing this on the idea that if you get a disease/virus and survive, you're body will be more prepared to react to it next time it comes around.
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  3. #3
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    It's widely acknowledged that civilization as a whole has stopped human evolution under many aspects, and it has been argued that it will maybe reverse evolutionary tendencies with time.

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    Gelatinous Cube's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Of course it does. But it's not a bad thing. If you ask me (and many will tell you I'm insane, but I'm right anyway dammit) we've gone as far as we will with Natural Evolution. Unless we all went back to living in the wilderness. The "Evolution" of Humans is marked in the Evolution of Technology.
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  5. #5

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    You can't "hurt" evolution. It's not like democracy or freedom or something we need to protect. It's neutral. It just happens.

    And anyway, it continues to happen. All creatures have evolved defenses against natural threats such as disease. The defense our species has evolved is brains big enough to use medicine to fight disease. But even still, diseases like AIDS come along and wipe out huge numbers of us until we find a cure, or failing that, until we develop antibodies to it like the Native Americans eventually did to European diseases. Then the next disease will come along and the process repeats. It's an arms race. A virus comes along that can overcome our immune system, and then we boost our immune system with medicine, then the virus mutates to get around our medicine, and we have to develop new medicine. This is no different than giraffe ancestors gradually getting taller to be able to utilize the resources at the tops of trees, and then acacia trees evolving thorny branches to keep giraffes out, and then the giraffes evolving long prehensile tongues to pluck leaves from between those thorns. In my view, medicine is not the end of evolution, it is a continuation of evolution.
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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    There are still criterion for natural selection, they just aren't the same as they used to be. What is more, the idea that we need to keep evolving is not necessarily the case when we will be able to artificially remove all sorts of nasty genetic problems in the not too distant future.

  7. #7

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    1) Evolution is always random.

    2) Those 'markers' you call are already being used by humans 'artificially' for a long time. It's called a vaccine.

    Originally posted by carousel
    To lead onto my next point, if I was to contract a fatal disease and subsequently die (duh) then is that not nature's natural selection? The very basis of our theories on evolution? Are we effectively stopping evolution in it's tracks?
    Evolution is dictated by changes within our dna as well as any other lifeforms' dna. When your dna code mutates - which is a random occurance - it is translated to a physical change in you.

    When two beings mate, they mix their dna and that mixture of dna is different from the parents. Those mutations which occured to the parents are also passed along to the progeny. So now you see how mutation can lead to evolution.

    Your body has many defensive mechanisms, it won't just go down like. Your body will still react to those infections, only slower. Those markers only make the response faster. That's why vaccines are very important.

  8. #8

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    Not society hasn't hurt or stopped evolution, it has simply brought it to a different path.

    The previous path was to lead us to civilization and give us the ability to survive. Now we are at a path to enlightenment if it is allowed to take place or a severe change. We will evolve with technology, i dont believe it will dominate us as some do. What will evolve is our minds and how we interact with the world around us.
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    Carousel's Avatar Need help? Ask me! Hit PM
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    2) Those 'markers' you call are already being used by humans 'artificially' for a long time. It's called a vaccine.
    That doesn't answer the question, completely irrelevant. The question was: is it better for me to contract the disease now when I can fight it effectively and therefore make it easier for myself in the future when I'm older and less effective at it? For example, chicken pox are FAR worse when you are older. Should we avoid trying to catch it and risk making it worse in future, or should we succumb to the fact that it would be better and safer for us to contract it as children?

    P.S. Big brains isn't a defense against disease. If it was the intention of nature for us to avoid disease then we would have super immune systems. I would not be so bold to assume that we are superior to everything else.
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  10. #10
    Valentin the II's Avatar Primicerius
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    You cant stop evoluteon , no one can.
    The bacterea is evolving and humans are evolving 2.
    The quasteon is : are wee evolving "in the right directeon"?
    Wee become wiker and if there wil be some super desies humanity may not servive it (even with our freceshly big braynes).
    Born to be wild - live to outgrow it (Lao Tzu)
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  11. #11
    Tacticalwithdrawal's Avatar Ghost
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    There's certainly a case for too much hygiene being bad for you. For example, people from USA tend to be much more suceptible to 'deli belly' (or its local equivalent) than people from Europe. I know one of the reasons given is that the standards of hygiene in peoples' homes is excesive in the States so people do not get exposed to bacteria.

    As to being exposed earlier rather than later, this is certainly true for the 'mild' diseases. I would be happy to expose my kids deliberately to some diseases (chicken pox being the obvious one) while they are still young. My eldest got it when he was 2 and hardly noticed. My wife got it when she was 19 and it nearly killed her.

    Another example is nursery school for kids. The first time most kids are usually exposed to all the standard colds etc that are in circulation is when they go to school. I had to send my kids to nursery at a very young age (wife and I had to work, ho hum) and they got every cold under the sun (and so did we). However, the advantage is that when they go to school they won't go through this aclimatising stage and can therefore concentrate on more important things.

    Mind you, wouldn't recomend you expose yourself to something like Ebola to build up a resistance.................
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carousel
    That doesn't answer the question, completely irrelevant. The question was: is it better for me to contract the disease now when I can fight it effectively and therefore make it easier for myself in the future when I'm older and less effective at it? For example, chicken pox are FAR worse when you are older. Should we avoid trying to catch it and risk making it worse in future, or should we succumb to the fact that it would be better and safer for us to contract it as children?
    No no, it's not irrelevant at all. Antibodies are very specific for each type of infection. So a flu vaccine only stimulate immune response only to the flu and that's it not to other infections at all. It is VERY, VERY specific.

    Only because when it is caught early, cellular memories of these antibodies are retained. So the second time it hits you, the response is much faster because the body already knows what to do.

    P.S. Big brains isn't a defense against disease. If it was the intention of nature for us to avoid disease then we would have super immune systems. I would not be so bold to assume that we are superior to everything else.
    Mutation. Microorganisms mutate, they evolve. For example, microorganisms that weren't completely killed by medicines because of mutatation that enables them to pumping out the medicines from their cells, rendering the drug ineffective.

    That doesn't mean they were thinking. No. It is a simple, random mutation in the dna that gave them physical ability to pump out the medicine. Because they survived the drug, these reproduce the same strains. Hence, it is now called drug-resistance. Like Malaria, they tried to beat with drugs, but it keeps mutating.

    But the mutation itself is random. The microorganism doesn't 'know': "well, I need to pump out these drugs to survive". It's just that random dna mutation that happenchance enable them to pump out the medicine. And that's not the only way it becomes resistant, just an example

    Our immune system is extremely advanced nonetheless. There are really no good and bad. The virus only reproduce and spread because it can. But in the greater scheme of things, there are no good and bad.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacticalwithdrawal
    There's certainly a case for too much hygiene being bad for you. For example, people from USA tend to be much more suceptible to 'deli belly' (or its local equivalent) than people from Europe. I know one of the reasons given is that the standards of hygiene in peoples' homes is excesive in the States so people do not get exposed to bacteria.

    As to being exposed earlier rather than later, this is certainly true for the 'mild' diseases. I would be happy to expose my kids deliberately to some diseases (chicken pox being the obvious one) while they are still young. My eldest got it when he was 2 and hardly noticed. My wife got it when she was 19 and it nearly killed her.

    Another example is nursery school for kids. The first time most kids are usually exposed to all the standard colds etc that are in circulation is when they go to school. I had to send my kids to nursery at a very young age (wife and I had to work, ho hum) and they got every cold under the sun (and so did we). However, the advantage is that when they go to school they won't go through this aclimatising stage and can therefore concentrate on more important things.

    Mind you, wouldn't recomend you expose yourself to something like Ebola to build up a resistance.................
    They're also starting to think that the increase in asthma & allergie cases in kids is somehow linked to excessive hygiene.

  14. #14
    Tacticalwithdrawal's Avatar Ghost
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    yeh, I saw that. They reckon its because the immune system is designed to fight 'invading' bacteria etc and when it has none to fight (because everything is so clean) it goes looking for anything that constitutes a foreign body. In the absence of 'normal' bugs it therefore keys on harmless foreign bodies and induces asthma and allergies.

    Mind you, that line of reasoning doesn't stop my wife and I disagreeing about how clean the house should be.......
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  15. #15

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    Can someone explain what evolution is? Is it simply random acts that lead to further random acts/events? If so then medicine is simply another random act and is part of evolution itself.

    Medicine would have to be outside evolution to harm it. That's the first thing you'd have to figure out.

  16. #16

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    Well, you can also go as far as certain genetic diseases. One hundred years, they'd kill you, but there are now ways of treating it so it doesn't develop into a problem. Those diseased genes can then get passed on, instead of being selected against.

    Of course, it could be possible that the genes being selected for and against are different these days than the ones a million years ago, for us. Of course, I'd say more, but I'd probably be accused of being a Social Darwinist.


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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by the samnite
    Can someone explain what evolution is? Is it simply random acts that lead to further random acts/events? If so then medicine is simply another random act and is part of evolution itself.
    Evolution is simply change in an organism depending on factors such as mutation and the environment.

    Your body cells have DNA. These DNA code mutate randomly. Mutations lead to different physical characteristics. I.e skin color, eye color etc...

    These physical characteristics are "selected for" depending on the environment where the organism lives.

    Example:

    Think of a small environment where you have natural sized bug mutate through random changes in the dna code to small size bugs and large size bugs (of same the specie).

    The small bugs can hide in between the rocks and can survive bird predators. Large and normal sized bugs can't hide. So, the larger bugs gets eaten, but the small bugs survive and reproduce.

    Therefore, the small bugs are "naturally selected" by the environment. You will now see alot of small bugs thriving in that environment. That's evolution. Because the Large bugs and normal sized bugs have now disappeared.

    You can say that the small bugs evolved from the normal sized bugs! But that's just one example. You can imagine the whole planet is teeming with organisms and there are many types of environment in the planet.

  18. #18

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    besides all the mutation and genes explanations , i understand what Carousel was asking.

    Here is a good example: me.

    I had a girlfriend. Super hygene, always clean and showered, never walked around in the middle of the woods, because of afraid of bugs, always "baby-sitted" by the parents (don't go there, don't do that), basicly never left her house to go for a field trip, every table is wiped with clorox wipes all the time, taking medicine for every little freakin thing...well you get the picture.

    Here is me. : Pick up food from the dirt and eat it, bite a living fish in half for a bet; ate pigeon crap when i was 3, always walk in the woods and gets bitten by all kind of insects all the time, sleep in the dirt if camping outside, always cut myself somewhere with something, drank all kinds of fluids by accident (brake fluid, gasoline etc.) ...so you get the picture.

    Difference? : My ex-girlfriend gets sick all the time. She goes outside when it's cold, she gets the cold and stays sick for weeks. She gets bitten by an ant, a huge swollen bump. She gets cut by a knife - infection. She has a lot of allergies to everything, food, flowers, animals etc.

    Me? - If i get a cold, i'm through with it in a few days. If i get bitten by a spider or bees, it doesn't bother me, neither i get too much problems. I cut myself, (i don't care too much) the cut heals fast. I have no allergies to anything, the doc says, my immune system is top of the line.

    Now draw some conclusion.

  19. #19

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    It does in a sense, but then again it doesn't. Our evolved advantage is our brain. It is what keeps us from freezing in the winter and getting eaten by big nasty animals. That is the only thing we have on them... that and opposable thumbs. As long as our brain keeps evolving we shouldn't worry too much about becoming so physically inept because we've been finding ways around that for milennia.

    It does make for an overweight and non-athletic society however. I'm all for a nice game of survivor in gym class to weed out the weak, but apparently letting kids starve pisses off parents :p

  20. #20

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    I dont really know about medicine, but I do know that hunting has been de-evolving animals for years and years.
    "I will call them my people,
    which were not my people;
    and her beloved,
    which was not beloved"
    Romans 9:25

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