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Thread: Manpower example values

  1. #1
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Manpower example values

    I was asked to give some example values for the manpower in APE:TI so here you go. They're ordered by faction and script difficulty (from top to bottom: easy, medium, hard, very hard). Left are the values for the player, right is the respective AI value.

    The manpower growth is liable to change during the game as it is proportional to the population growth if that is large enough.


    France







    United Provinces







    Prussia







    Venice





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  2. #2

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Alpaca -- would you please explain what these values mean?

    Let's use your first example above (France, top left hand corner). For ease of reference, I have reduced the first value by 1000 (from 5011 to 4011) and added reference points [A-E]:

    Europe
    Manpower: [A]4011/[B]5011 [C](+200)
    Supply: [D]926/[E]5491

    A = The total number of men of fighting age that have not yet been recruited in Europe -- 4011, correct?
    B = The total number of men of fighting age in Europe whether they have recruited already or not -- 5011, correct?
    C = The total number of men that will turn 18 (or whetever the fighting age is) next turn, correct? Does that number get added to B? In other words will B = 5211 next turn?
    D = What does this mean?
    E = What does this mean? How does manpower different from supply?

    Hope these questions make sense, thanks.
    Last edited by The Lionheart; May 27, 2009 at 11:16 PM.
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  3. #3
    l33tl4m3r's Avatar A Frakkin' Toaster
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Manpower: [A]4011/[B]5011 [C](+200)
    Supply: [D]926/[E]5491

    A = Total number of troops available but not yet recruited. Unit numbers are subtracted from this number.
    B = Maximum possible number of troops not yet recruited. A + C over time can equal up to this but cannot cross it.
    C = Number of troops that get added to A each turn.

    D = Number of troops currently recruited and supplied. Unit numbers recruited are added to this number.
    E = Maximum possible number of troops that can be supplied.

    A, B, and C represent actual bodies.

    D and E represent guns, ammo, uniforms and other things needed to supply those troops.

    If A goes below 0 you cannot recruit any more soliders. This means you have run out of warm bodies to recruit.

    If D goes above E you cannot recruit any more soldiers. This mean you have run out of supplies to equip your troops.

    You can have available manpower and max out your supply; you will not be able to recruit.

    You can have available supply and use up all your manpower; you will not be able to recruit.

    --

    Hope this helps!

    Alpaca, correct me on any of this if I am wrong!
    Last edited by l33tl4m3r; October 20, 2009 at 06:03 PM.
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  4. #4
    notger's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    What about theater transitions?

    What if I build up an army in Europe that is greater than my american/indian supply (as it always will be, unless I already have colonies = for Prussia, Sweden and others) and then ship it over to America/India?
    Will the troops start do desert, will I be unable to retrain them or will I have to pay more for upkeep?

    What if I lose soldiers in battle?
    Which number will then be lowered? I would guess it being A.

    How is manpower/supply calculated (roughly)? (Ok, if that takes up too much time answering, just ignore the question. Don't want to steal your time.)

  5. #5
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by l33tl4m3r View Post
    A = Total number of troops available but not yet recruited. Unit numbers are subtracted from this number.
    B = Maximum possible number of troops not yet recruited. A + C over time can equal up to this but cannot cross it.
    C = Number of troops that get added to A each turn.

    D = Number of troops currently recruited and supplied. Unit numbers recruited are added to this number.
    E = Maximum possible number of troops that can be supplied.

    A, B, and C represent actual bodies.

    D and E represent guns, ammo, uniforms and other things needed to supply those troops.

    If A goes below 100 you cannot recruit any more soliders. This means you have run out of warm bodies to recruit.

    If D goes within 100 of E you cannot recruit any more soldiers. This mean you have run out of supplies to equip your troops.

    You can have available manpower and max out your supply; you will not be able to recruit.

    You can have available supply and use up all your manpower; you will not be able to recruit.

    --

    Hope this helps!

    Alpaca, correct me on any of this if I am wrong!
    Everything's right except for a small thing: For the supply limit recruitment is only disabled when you go over the threshold not when you're 100 below it.

    Quote Originally Posted by notger View Post
    What about theater transitions?

    What if I build up an army in Europe that is greater than my american/indian supply (as it always will be, unless I already have colonies = for Prussia, Sweden and others) and then ship it over to America/India?
    Will the troops start do desert, will I be unable to retrain them or will I have to pay more for upkeep?

    What if I lose soldiers in battle?
    Which number will then be lowered? I would guess it being A.

    How is manpower/supply calculated (roughly)? (Ok, if that takes up too much time answering, just ignore the question. Don't want to steal your time.)
    You can go over the supply limit as far as you wish without further problems - you simply won't be able to recruit units in those theatres. And one of the mod house rules will therefore tell you not to replenish your units, either. This rule isn't enforced but it should be seen as obligatory because otherwise you're just exploiting the scripting problems.

    I had an idea yesterday of adding a mechanism for global supplies where if you go over your worldwide supply limit (sum of soldiers in all theatres) you won't be able to recruit anything anywhere which I'll implement today.

    No thing is everything. Every thing is nothing.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    anyway to simulate capturing supplies, I'm surprised they didn't add capturing cannons in the same way you can take enemy ships and add them to your won fleet
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  7. #7
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by Balbor View Post
    anyway to simulate capturing supplies, I'm surprised they didn't add capturing cannons in the same way you can take enemy ships and add them to your won fleet
    The supplies are an abstraction in their current installation. I don't think capturing those would work well. First of all to do that the system would have to be replaced by something using a supply pool where supplies are put in by your provinces and taken out by your armies. Right now the supplies are more of an army cap with a fancy name.

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  8. #8
    pajomife's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    So,lets give a concrete value,How many units we can build in England between 1710 and 1715.And if we disband a army build in england ,in the US colonies ,they will increase the population?In RTW they did.

  9. #9
    notger's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Hmm ... isn't the replenish-button disabled by default?
    I thought I read something the like in another thread (screenie of your script config file, I think).

    Anyway, how do battle losses affect supply/manpower-values?

  10. #10
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by pajomife@iol.pt View Post
    So,lets give a concrete value,How many units we can build in England between 1710 and 1715.And if we disband a army build in england ,in the US colonies ,they will increase the population?In RTW they did.
    Enough that you will be limited by money, not by manpower. And neither manpower nor population increases when you disband a unit. So don't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by notger View Post
    Hmm ... isn't the replenish-button disabled by default?
    I thought I read something the like in another thread (screenie of your script config file, I think).

    Anyway, how do battle losses affect supply/manpower-values?
    No it's enabled by default since TI 0.2 because I realized that it was very bad in conncetion with capped units. I replaced it with the house rule instead.

    Battle losses don't directly affect your manpower but your used supplies will decrease in the next turn. Of course if you replenish the army or recruit new troops, those will use up manpower.

    No thing is everything. Every thing is nothing.

  11. #11
    notger's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Cool, thanks.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    What determines the amount of supply in a theater? Is it based on population or by the amount of textile or industrial buildings?...which, I suppose, would represent factories
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    l33tl4m3r & Alpaca:

    Thanks for the response. One more question for you.When I click on a college, the following language appears:

    Educational facilities will cost:
    Town Wealth (unpaid cost): -4210
    Cost this turn: -2118

    What do these entries and values mean?
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  14. #14
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeCK View Post
    What determines the amount of supply in a theater? Is it based on population or by the amount of textile or industrial buildings?...which, I suppose, would represent factories
    Right now it depends on population (i.e. it's directly tied to manpower). I'm planning to add bonuses to the factories in the future though

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lionheart View Post
    l33tl4m3r & Alpaca:

    Thanks for the response. One more question for you.When I click on a college, the following language appears:

    Educational facilities will cost:
    Town Wealth (unpaid cost): -4210
    Cost this turn: -2118

    What do these entries and values mean?
    Yeah I changed this to something else only yesterday (see the manual for the new version). The one you're quoting is now only active for the AI, not for the player. For the AI, research cost is deducted from the town wealth. Since town wealth can't be negative, I scripted this so that it will only make it close to zero and adjust the trait every turn.

    The number at the top is the remaining town wealth that could not yet be deducted.

    Up until yesterday the second number showed you how much money would be deducted from the treasury at turn end (this applied only to the player), a fraction of the town wealth that hadn't been deducted yet. This has been replaced by a fixed cost now, so each school costs 5000 multiplied by a fraction dependent on the difficulty setting (0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1 for easy, medium, hard, very hard)

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Thanks Alpaca.

    These manpower and supply limits add a lot of realism and definitely improve the game. I'd like to propose two small improvements:

    Let's use my [A-E] values from above.

    Manpower: [A]4011/[B]5011 [C](+200)
    Supply: [D]926/[E]5491

    Here are my proposals:

    1. Eliminate (B). It seems to me that the total number of troops left to recruit (A) and the replenishment rate (C) are the only values you need.
    2. Eliminate (E) and invert the value for (D). In other words, rather than providing the amount of supplies used (D) and the max available (E), just get rid of (E) and have (D) = the amount of supplies that remain (similar to (A), the amount of manpower that remains).

    Here's a before and after of what I had in mind:

    Before
    Manpower: 4011/5011 (+200)
    Supply: 926/5491

    After:
    Manpower: 4011 (+200)
    Supply: 4565

    I don't know if these changes are possible, but the revised values seem easier to comprehend. Feel free to accept or reject as you see fit.

    Thanks!
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  16. #16
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lionheart View Post
    Thanks Alpaca.

    These manpower and supply limits add a lot of realism and definitely improve the game. I'd like to propose two small improvements:

    Let's use my [A-E] values from above.

    Manpower: [A]4011/[B]5011 [C](+200)
    Supply: [D]926/[E]5491

    Here are my proposals:

    1. Eliminate (B). It seems to me that the total number of troops left to recruit (A) and the replenishment rate (C) are the only values you need.
    2. Eliminate (E) and invert the value for (D). In other words, rather than providing the amount of supplies used (D) and the max available (E), just get rid of (E) and have (D) = the amount of supplies that remain (similar to (A), the amount of manpower that remains).

    Here's a before and after of what I had in mind:

    Before
    Manpower: 4011/5011 (+200)
    Supply: 926/5491

    After:
    Manpower: 4011 (+200)
    Supply: 4565

    I don't know if these changes are possible, but the revised values seem easier to comprehend. Feel free to accept or reject as you see fit.

    Thanks!
    For the manpower it's important to know how far up it can go I think, if the number is small you'll like to recruit soldiers when the pool is full in order to not waste manpower. For supply this could be done but I like being able to see how many troops I have in a theatre. It'd also be ugly to have negative numbers there.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    I dont really understand this system in practice...I have a value for B around 5000 and my A value is either negative or less than 100. I only have 2600 troops total between all my cities and armies. Is there a way to increase man power?

  18. #18
    alpaca's Avatar Harbinger of saliva
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    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by theburn View Post
    I dont really understand this system in practice...I have a value for B around 5000 and my A value is either negative or less than 100. I only have 2600 troops total between all my cities and armies. Is there a way to increase man power?
    Decrease the script difficulty or wait until it refills. The idea is that you don't play like in vanilla where you can simply throw away units any way you like but choose your battles. 2600 troops is a lot. Do you replenish often? Also, the current manpower should be equal to the max manpower at game start.

    No thing is everything. Every thing is nothing.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Manpower example values

    Quote Originally Posted by alpaca View Post
    Decrease the script difficulty or wait until it refills. The idea is that you don't play like in vanilla where you can simply throw away units any way you like but choose your battles. 2600 troops is a lot. Do you replenish often? Also, the current manpower should be equal to the max manpower at game start.

    I do replenish some...Not often, I really only replenish when I cant recruit any more units and I am fighting either a rebellion or an invading army.

  20. #20

    Icon13 Manpower again

    Ok I get it, but I dont get it

    I started with netherlands and had 1676/1676 +55 manpower (currently/maximum ergo currently = maximum)

    i recruited 3 units of milita of 160 men (so it gives 480 men) and it drops to 1236/1457 + 42

    I dont get this two number. Which is number of soldier i can recruit? 1236 or 1457? Why currently droped? why maximum droped? If think there are mistakes in description.


    And how its calculated? My proposition is to replace those numbers with one number of soldier you are currently able to recruit. Or two number of soldier you can recruit and you currently have (so one number will rase when new unit will be recruited). For example:

    1000/2000 +55
    (current number of men/maximum number)

    it will be way simplier
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