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Thread: Citizenship

  1. #1
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    I just thought I'd throw this out there for discussion: I think it might be good for every US citizen to have to take a citizenship test at 18 to retain citizenship status. Anyone who knows less about their home country than immigrants doesn't deserve to be citizens themselves. Thoughts?

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    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Well born from parents who are citizens in the nation in question should automatically grant citizenship. It's up to the institutions the citizen passes through to educate the citizen.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

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    I have to agree with wilpuri, if your born in a country and your parents are citizens then you should automatically be given citizen status, implementing a system where people are tested would prove very difficult. What status would illiterate and mentally disabled people have if they were incapable of passing the test. Selectively choosing citizens is more of an ancient Greek democracy which would give power to selected members, though this might be a beneficial to the country in question it would be undemocratic and would go against human rights. This highlights the issue of which is more important, the individual or the state.

    As regards immigrants, yes I do feel they should take some sort of test before being given citizenship and in their case, the state should come first.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  4. #4
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    I think citizenship shouldn't be handed out so readily. Perhaps create a special non-citizen class for long-term immigrants, but I don't feel citizenship should be too readily available.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  5. #5

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    Well a form of non-citizen class exists here, My mother is part of it and has to go and register every 6 months to the government, or at least she did before we joined the EU. She could work and perform most civil liberties just not vote. I do think that citizenship should be "readily available" within the EU, obviously with certain limitations controlled by the country in question. However when it comes to non EU countries I only think they should become citizens after living in the EU for more then 3 years with family and a stable income and payment of tax. But allowing immigrants into Europe is a different topic, though I think America has similar problems.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  6. #6
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    This could be bypassed by better measures on social integration. 3d generation Indians are much more nationalist then Brits of the same age, and upheld higher their "Britishness" than thir native counterparts. I do not ignore the long british rule in India, and the same does not apply for 1st generation Kurds.
    OTOH having exams for the indigenous citizens, would be tantamount to admission of failure for the educational system. I agree that in all cases citizenship should be earned, and that would be the best safeguard for human rights, in the long term. But exams is not possible to test the abilities of a candidate. A one year quasi-military program of social work would be a good start...

  7. #7

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    I more-or-less agree with Scrappy, tests would probably be a good idea. I don't like the idea of actually 'inheriting' such a status, because it might lead to the situation where young adolescents take their future status for granted. It leads to spoiled, undisciplined kids who are more a burden than a help to society (much like a large proportion of the kids of today). In fact, I despise al hereditary titles, no matter how important (hence why I dislike monarchies). I feel that, if you want to obtain a title (be it king, duke or even citizen) you should work for it and show you're worthy instead of taking it all for granted...

    But regretfully I don't think such a test is possible. Firstly because a majority would disagree with it, probably with the popular argument 'it is too fascist'. Also, it would cost billions upon billions to achieve such a thing, and the administrative and logistic problems would be uncontrollable. But nonetheless the thought itself is very appealing.

  8. #8
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    I do think that citizenship should be "readily available" within the EU, obviously with certain limitations controlled by the country in question.
    Something I could largely agree on, presuming the EU does nothing stupid and decides to consolidate its position and take a breather.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  9. #9

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    Originally posted by wilpuri@May 27 2005, 07:04 AM

    Something I could largely agree on, presuming the EU does nothing stupid and decides to consolidate its position and take a breather.
    I didn’t get that, are you referring to an expansion or the current constitution votes?
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  10. #10
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    I meant further expansion.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  11. #11
    falx's Avatar Civitate
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    I live for more then 5 years in the EU now and still have a very peculiar status. I work and pay my taxes but still have to go each year and get a visa. I even pay money for pension and the social insurance system but in case I don't have work I'll get kicked out of the union so can't really say that I like it.
    I feel they should introduce a point system similar to Canada where you need a certain number of points to be granted citizenship and can get them accordingly to your age, studies and skills.
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  12. #12

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    Originally posted by Scrappy Jenks@May 27 2005, 02:08 AM
    I just thought I'd throw this out there for discussion: I think it might be good for every US citizen to have to take a citizenship test at 18 to retain citizenship status. Anyone who knows less about their home country than immigrants doesn't deserve to be citizens themselves. Thoughts?
    It's not a question of what you know about your country, but what you will do for your countrymen.


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  13. #13

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    well, you have to value your citizenship, like the Romans did. they got two pieces of bread ang a cup of wine free, if in need, and the greeks got some number of drahmas. but with citizenship, come both benefits and responsibilities, such as military service. Also, I would like to add, can you make it so that before becoming a Civiate, besides having 100 posts and a sponsor, you have to answer a 20 question trivial test(several types to prevent abuse) with the link sent to you and get 18 correct to pass? that would make the civiates more of the intelligent people they should be...
    Last edited by Ricgard; June 03, 2005 at 04:25 PM.

  14. #14
    Spiff's Avatar That's Ffips backwards
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    heres an idea for the real world

    we have a system of civilians and citizens. Only citizens can influence the government (by voting), and citizenship is gained through federal service... also you must have citizenship to have certain rights, like having children etc.

    well perhaps not. starship troopers was a good film though

  15. #15

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    we have a system of civilians and citizens. Only citizens can influence the government (by voting), and citizenship is gained through federal service... also you must have citizenship to have certain rights, like having children etc.
    What is federal service? What about if the civilians don't have the right to vote or play part in politics? And they also don't get health care from the government, but the citizens do. How do you become a citizen? You have to serve in the army for one year. The idea behind this is; if you serve in the army then you prove you are a worthy citizen who is willing to kill and get killed for the country. Now if someone cannot serve in the army for one year, they they have to do community work for one year or something like that. The point behind that you have to prove your worth as a citizen.

    To prove you actually care.
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  16. #16

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    Nowadays concept of citizenship is based on at least two older concepts: that of subject (of a lord or king) and that of citizen of an ancient or middle-ages republic (that is, somebody who has a saying in the political decisions of the state). While the subject part is not that obvious today, we still feel its effects big time when we have to pay income taxes and property taxes (most of the republican taxes were what we call now indirect taxes).

    Since the modern concept of citizenship is a hybrid descendent of the former two (subject and ancient citizen), no wonder we discover from time to time and in various situations that it is not exactly fitting the current realities. For instance in countries where the military service isn't mandatory, the army can, and sometimes does include non-citizens. Another example is that of people who work in another country, pay taxes but have no saying into the political decisions of that country.

    I think the next quantum leap in the concept of citizenship would be granting it automaticly to whoever is paying income and property taxes, in addition of course to the current ways of granting it (being born on the territory of the state, being born from parents-citizens, through marriage and through successful application for citizenship). The reason why that would most likely happen sooner rather than later in the developed countries has to do with the need for economic growth and with the fact many of those countries face the problem of an aging population. In this contex I think having the current citizens tested for "wothyness" is counterproductive.
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  17. #17

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    To have citizens unaware of their national identity is a tragedy, but to remove citezens from a country on the basis of lost knowledge is impractical. Think of the cost and paperwork involved in the process. As far as I can see, the only possible effect would be to remove vast swathes of the able bodied working populace, weakening the economy even as millions of dollars are wasted on the very process. Such elitism, valid or not, would come at too high a price to the country concerned.


    heres an idea for the real world

    we have a system of civilians and citizens. Only citizens can influence the government (by voting), and citizenship is gained through federal service... also you must have citizenship to have certain rights, like having children etc.

    well perhaps not. starship troopers was a good film though
    Speaking of elitism... how did this slip in under the wire? Spiffington's not a civitate!
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  18. #18
    Søren's Avatar ܁
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    Speaking of elitism... how did this slip in under the wire? Spiffington's not a civitate!
    Nor is Ricgard, the likley answer is that this was moved from the Political Mudpit ?

    To have citizens unaware of their national identity is a tragedy, but to remove citezens from a country on the basis of lost knowledge is impractical. Think of the cost and paperwork involved in the process. As far as I can see, the only possible effect would be to remove vast swathes of the able bodied working populace, weakening the economy even as millions of dollars are wasted on the very process. Such elitism, valid or not, would come at too high a price to the country concerned.
    I agree, it would be highly impractical.

    To my mind this problem would be best adressed in the educationary system.

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