Cavalry too strong?

[athanaric]

Hi there, I'm playing Dominion of Britannia ATM, and so far, it's great.
However, I'm wondering about cavalry warfare. I've started a Norwegian campaign (H/M) and every time I meet cavalry my lads get there a** kicked in melee against those cowardly horsemen. Even a unit of 50 ragged Irish light horsemen managed to kill over 100 out of 200 Vikingr (both units were "winded"). And that was a melee-only engagement, without javelins. Likewise, Irish bodyguards and Mormaers make a huge dent in infantry forces. Shouldn't cavalry in this period be, um, less powerful than in later times? Right now it feels a bit like in RTW vanilla (with better atmosphere of course).

[Aradan]

Maybe we are accustomed to different setting for cavalry, but I find mounted units quite weaker in VI2 than in vanilla or other mods. Most cavalry units will take have casualties if left unattended in short time, at least that's my experience so far. Horses can deliver a good charge, but in prolonged melee they will get beaten relatively easily.

Just get a unit of Mormaers (high-class, expensive cavalry) into proper melee with a unit of Fyrdmen/Bonnachts/Infantry (medium infantry) and see if the horsemen manage to beat the footmen.

[athanaric]

Thx, I'll try that. I suspect I'm using too few spearmen in my armies anyway, mainly because as of yet I hardly recruited any units, only one or two spearmen or bowmen units...

[0N3]

Want to defeat cavalry? Only spearmen will work, but they work like hell... Still, cavalry is way too strong against units like vikingr for example... They may just have a small axe but in prolonged battle 3 units of vikingr should kill the cavalry with little losses, but in fact they lose 50 people and kill about 6...
i think it should be fixed or else it gets very rock paper siccor like(unrealistic)...

[Keyser Soze]

use spearmen against cavalry. they everytime beat them.
Mormaers were Knights of this era and they and Ui Neill´s teaglach are elite units. when 35 horses (every has 500 kg) in full gallop attack 50 men (every 80 kg) they must smash them. and I didn´t write about men with weapons on horses backs...

[Abyrvalg]

Shouldn't cavalry in this period be, um, less powerful than in later times?

Yes, it should, since there weren't noble knights mounted on terrible destriers with devastating charge, or mamluks, or mongolian horsearchers with their deadly bows.
But even so cavalry always was more powerful than infantry, until reinvention of phalanx in Europe (or you should use English longbowmen with stakes standing on higher grounds vs arrogant French knights, lol).
And even after, cavalry delivered decisive strikes on battlefield till the end of XIX century.

Right now it feels a bit like in RTW vanilla (with better atmosphere of course).

It should be. Indeed, cavalry should be even more powerful than in ancient times, thanks sturrups

Also, your vikingr are ill-armoured, and riders in reality strike from higher position in melee, horses (especially moving) are far more hard to kill than average infantryman. Do not forget, vikingrs are basic LIGHT infantry, they are meat shield.
Use archers to weaken cavalry from distance, use spearmen to engage in close sombat, surround enemy cavalry unit, immobilise it, you'll see a difference.

[athanaric]

[...]
It should be. Indeed, cavalry should be even more powerful than in ancient times, thanks sturrups

Also, your vikingr are ill-armoured, and riders in reality strike from higher position in melee, horses (especially moving) are far more hard to kill than average infantryman. Do not forget, vikingrs are basic LIGHT infantry, they are meat shield.
Use archers to weaken cavalry from distance, use spearmen to engage in close sombat, surround enemy cavalry unit, immobilise it, you'll see a difference.

I know how to use and defeat cavalry - I'm an expert player of all factions in EB, which is the most realistic computer game in the world. My trouble is with cavalry in prolonged melee, not in charges or short engagements. Forgive me for not making that specific point more clear.
Consider that the Irish light horsemen I mentioned are - unless I'm much mistaken - ordinary light cavalry that isn't even supposed to fight in any real melee (although the AI doesn't get that ). I fail to see how a unit of light horsemen with mediocre discipline and "only" underhand spears (which are better for charging than for fighting) should be able to overwhelm a bigger unit of any infantry in melee. The charge of course takes a big chunk out of the enemy, but then? Even with stirrups - did the Celts, Gaels and Anglo-Saxons even have these? - unarmoured cavalry is a dangerously easy target for all sorts of enemy attacks.

But even so cavalry always was more powerful than infantry,

I question that. IMO, no part of the armed forces is/was inherently stronger than another. They all have their uses and weaknesses. Perhaps the greatest strength of the infantry, in which it dominated the cavalry, artillery etc., was prolonged melee. AFAIK whenever cavalry was met by a strong and disciplined infantry force in melee, the cavalry lost. Like at Tours.

until reinvention of phalanx in Europe (or you should use English longbowmen with stakes standing on higher grounds vs arrogant French knights, lol).

Longbowmen are only good vs. horses and the occasional soft spot in the armour. On less favourable terrain and against a more disciplined foe, I'd rather take (Chinese) Arbalestiers or, even better, infantry with polearms.

[phileas]

Agree. Cavalry in VI2 is like chariots in the regular game. You can compensate but you end up planning your whole battle around containing them... (like the Jordan rules).

Its funny cause I'm also playing Troy Total War right now, and the cavalry there is horrible and archers are too strong.

[Aradan]

I beg to differ, but then maybe it's a matter of personal opinion. Cavalry can be cut down in VI2 quite easily and it costs much compared to its value. I just run a test with Fyrdmen VS cavalry in melee and Fyrdmen slaughtered the horsemen...

EB, which is the most realistic computer game in the world

Not. Historical accuracy has nothing to do with balance, implementation and game mechanics, two altogether different things. I find cavalry in EB almost useless, mainly because of the mass settings chosen.

[phileas]

Yea, the fact that cavalry is not that common (too expensive) makes it not too bad. Plus you can't put them on ships.

I just had to get used to armies without horses galloping around, since I started with Norwegians

[jackx]

Hello all. Thought I'd chime in on this issue... (to the point where it is the thing that finally makes me get an account, instead of just lurking - so I'll also use this opportunity to express my gratitude to the VI2 and now the DoB team as well for making what is for me the best SP TW mod. Many thanks, guys. )

As it is, I see two main balancing problems with cavalry:

1. Saxon Horsemen. These guys aren't half bad, and they're cheap. Slightly more expensive than your basic spearmen, no more. Granted, I don't know how I'd have survived the early part of my current (successful, now at 24 provinces, with Wessex and Danes destroyed, and Wales, Northumbria and Mercia close to defeat) East Anglia campaign without them, but still... They're available early, and due to a less than stellar AI, in the hands of the player, they're quite lethal. (The larger the battle, the better the AI seems to be at preventing, or at least delaying cavalry charges to the back and flanks of its formation.) Not much of a problem with the AI Saxons, as they rarely field significant numbers of horsemen, and even if they do, they're fairly easy to deal with, and of course as a player one can chose not to take advantage of this, but some change to the unit (be it their effectiveness, or their cost/upkeep) probably won't hurt.

2. Cavalry doesn't die in a prolonged melee. Actually, when you look closely, you'll see that this is not true - cavalry does die quite quickly if it gets stuck in a melee, even against troops that don't have an anti-cav bonus, the problem is that cavalry, even when fighting large numbers of infantry, rarely ever gets stuck in a melee in the first place. Instead, they'll just push your infantry around and ride through their ranks all the time, striking away at your footsloggers while these get barely a chance to gang up on the horsemen. Seems to be a mass issue, really, but then, lowering the mass for the light cavalry would probably make them too weak - particularly since, like any TW-based game, their main area of usefulness (scouting, harassing outside of pitched battles) is not represented, so to justify their existance, their battlefield performance has to be better than it probably was.
The relatively high vulnerability of Vikingr and Leidangr to cavalry isn't really a problem for me, because not only can the Viking factions field spearmen easily enough to deal with cavalry, both Vikingr and Leidangr also have a tendency to make short work of the other factions basic spear units, and those factions have much less options for early-game non-spear melee infantry.

As a player, again you have a few options to counteract this problem, such as shield wall (which works really well), or using relatively deep formations that take the cavalry charge in guard mode, but then taking them out of guard mode and having the actively counterattack the cavalry (won't negate the effectiveness of the charge, like shield wall does, but at least your surviving infantry will kill a good number of horsemen in return, too).

A human player will get much more out of his or her cavalry than the AI ever will, but that's not really a balancing problem of the mod - or if it is seen as such, then I vastly prefer it to those mods that "fix" this by basically (un)balancing the gameplay to such a degree that the human player is more or less forced to rely on AI exploitation for ridiculous ("tactically brilliant", I guess :x) heroic victories...

[On a rather unrelated note, due to their (relative, as you have lots of cash, and mercenary horsemen aren't exactly scarce if you want to go that route) lack of cavalry, I find Norwegians easier on hard battle difficulty than on medium - the casualty ratio may be more in my favour on medium, but on hard, with enemy units (particularly Celts) routing less often, the absolute casualties will favour the Norwegians, as it makes it much easier for them to actually destroy enemy armies in field battles. That's also why I find berserkers practically useless against Celts, because they make them rout before I can kill enough of them...]

Bottom line of this rather lengthy post:

Light cavalry probably needs a re-adjustment of its mass setting and stats, because right now, after the initial charge, they act too much like heavy cavalry, pushing their way through infantry, which prevents them from taking the appropriate casualties.

If at all possible, the AI should be set up to up to counter cavalry more effectively, particulary by using shield wall when available.

Saxon Horsemen should be made either more expensive, to match their effectiveness, or, IMHO, preferably, made less effective - good for chasing routers (and thus enabling Saxons to win decisive victories), but unlike the Celtic lights or mercenaries, not really able to deliver a charge.

Thankfully, other than the light cavalry push/mass issue, a few simple house rules or a bit of restriction on the player's part is all that is needed to prevent undue cavalry dominance which might ruin the gritty infantry-slugfest dark age atmosphere of the mod (which is what makes it so appealing, I suppose, notwithstanding that, outside of this backwards group of islands, cavalry warfare was already dominant or becoming dominant in this time period in the larger European context).

[athanaric]

Not. Historical accuracy has nothing to do with balance, implementation and game mechanics, two altogether different things. I find cavalry in EB almost useless, mainly because of the mass settings chosen.

I can assure you, as I've experienced many times and especially when using cavalry against large forces of infantry, that cavalry is a very powerful tool in EB and cavalry superiority is a huge advantage in battle. I've learned to fear the Hetairoi, too...
Of course I am aware that that game is set in an age different from that of VI, but some basic rules of warfare always apply. From what I know, EB is very realistic, and more so than any other game or mod I've encountered or heard of*. Besides, what is the difference between realism and historical accuracy?

Light cavalry probably needs a re-adjustment of its mass setting and stats, because right now, after the initial charge, they act too much like heavy cavalry, [...]

My feelings exactly.



*That is not to say VI 2 were bad in any way, of course.

[Aradan]

Accuracy = using a native name for a unit, having a model based on historical evidence etc etc
Realism = your medium/heavy cavalry being able to kill more than a couple of low-level slingers when performing a full, formed charge from behind

Anyway, I'd rather not have this turn into some contest between EB and VI2, the very notion is absurd, as we are talking about mods with wildly different timeframes, goals, attitudes and resources. Thank God both are modfoldered, so players can play both.


Jackx: Glad we managed to make you get off lurking mode, and also very glad you like VI2 so much, it's great to receive such comments.

If you feel light cavalry is too 'heavy' feel free to modify the light horse's mass in descr_mount.txt or simply edit the hell out of the EDU; as much as we like catering to fans' wishes (and we have done so in the past consistently), a new patch just to tweak light cavalry mass is not an option.

Nonetheless, thanks (all of you) for your support and feedback.

EDIT: And sorry i this post fails to address any other points, I'm kinda exhausted from studying atm and my brain is not really working...

[jackx]

Aye, I might try my hand at changing this via stats, though I'm fearful of screwing up the otherwise great balance of the mod... particulalry since the infantry not attacking cavalry in a melee issue of course effects all cavalry, i.e. heavy cavalry is also protected from 2h axes by it...
Shield walls could be an easy solution to this (and might add even more atmosphere to this mod), as infantry with shield wall turned on does a decent job of striking back at cavalry, to the point where it can even get dangerous to stay in the midst of vikingr for too long... of course, that only applies if the AI could be convinced of using this special ability for its units...

AT first, I put this down to the much greater density of the formation, but from my experience with siege defenses, it's not just that, even though it of course contributes - a handful of horsemen still manage to push their way through deep and overlapping formations of regular spearmen with barely any casualties when you use the spears to block a gate or breach...

While we're talking formations and cavalry, hedgehog is also absolutely useless (and unlike shield wall, used by the AI), if anything, it seems to make the unit even more vulnerable to cavalry as they get pushed around just as easily, and even fewer of them get to strike...

This doesn't really detract from the game, in fact, it wasn't until recently that I noticed it at all, but it's like a basically harmless itch - once you notice it, you start scratching, and it's all downhill from there...

[Alex-ander]

I think Cavalry are about right. In a battle they have 2 uses charging into the back of an engaged enemy (very effective if done properly)unit and chasing routers. They are poor at any kind of melee fighting and anything stronger than archers or slingers will soon have your cavalry fleeing in panic.

I like to have a couple of cavalry units in my armies but they need a lot of management.

[jackx]

Are you, by any chance, playing your battles on H or VH? Also, this is about DoB 1.2 afaik, VI2 1.7 might be quite different, too.

It's also a problem that really only becomes noticeable by accident - I first noticed it in a siege setting, where cavalry pushed through the massive scrum at the gate with impunity, effectively breaking the defending formation, and with few losses, where hundreds of infantry were getting nowhere... as a player, you won't use your cavalry in what appears to be a truly stupid fashion, and thus aren't very likely to notice that it actually works. It's not so much a balancing problem as an immersion/atmosphere problem for me - it creates "WTF?" moments where they shouldn't be.