Islam, take 2

[Ummon]

Ok let's try again and be more specific:

"When the infidels will possess twice as many riches as the earth may contain, and they will offer these to escape from the supplice of the day of resurrection, their offers won't be accepted. A cruel punishment awaits them.

Koran, V,40

"They have violated (the Jews) the pact they had accepted, and we have cursed them..."

Koran, V,16

"We have accepted the allegiance of those who define themselve christians... We have provoked between them enmity and hatred which shall endure until the day of resurrection..."

Koran, V,17

"How many generations haven't we annihilated before them (the infidels). They all cried for help, but it wasn't time to avoid punishment"

Apology of genocide?

Koran, XXXVIII,2

"Everyone who has treated our apostles as imposters, my punishment comes to humble them"

Koran, XXXVIII,13

"When you meet the infidels, kill them until you make a great carnage, and restrain with bridles (sic) the prisoners you make"

Koran, XLVII,5

"After that you'll free them, or give them back in exchange for a ransom, when the war has ceased..."

Koran, XLVII,6

"The true believers say: Hasn't God revealed the chapter which orders the Holy War?"

Koran, XLVII,22

"Plunge into hell any persisting infidel"

Koran, L,23

"Avoid them... (the infidels)"

Koran, LIV,6

More will follow.

[Xiaodun]

And may I ask, what religion (except Buddhism and small pagan religions) openly embrace other religions?

[Ummon]

Very few suggest that you should kill "infidels", though.

[Ricgard]

christianity does. judaism does. hinduism kinda does(I've read about it) what makes islam different?

[Ardeur]

And may I ask, what religion (except Buddhism and small pagan religions) openly embrace other religions?

Good question.... Shintoism?

[Erik]

Originally posted by deathdoom56@May 24 2005, 07:57 AM
And may I ask, what religion (except Buddhism and small pagan religions) openly embrace other religions?

IIRC Sikhism is very open towards other religions... but other religions aren&#39;t very open to them. :><

IMHO Buddhism isn&#39;t a religion but a way of life, or a life philosophy.
Most Buddhist are also religious in some form (like most people), but not all.


edit: I think you should make clear what this topic is supposed to be about, All I see is some Koran texts.

[OriginOfSymmetry]

the koran, like the bible, is a very long book, you can find him both pro and against tolarence to other religions say&#39;s. and anyone can quote those by his interest&#39;s
for explame, some arab leader can say that the koran said to kill all jews, but other leader can say that the koran said that arabs should live peacefully with their neighboors (just an explame, i dont really know what the koran says)

and soory about the bad english

[Tekumze]

Ummon:
Quotes come completely without context so they can be easily misunderstood. That&#39;s why I&#39;ll avoid commenting them for now.

I am willing to bet that you can find similar "lines" in many other religious books.

[Erik]

Originally posted by OriginOfSymmetry@May 24 2005, 08:13 AM
the koran, like the bible, is a very long book, you can find him both pro and against tolarence to other religions say&#39;s. and anyone can quote those by his interest&#39;s
for explame, some arab leader can say that the koran said to kill all jews, but other leader can say that the koran said that arabs should live peacefully with their neighboors (just an explame, i dont really know what the koran says)

and soory about the bad english

He&#39;s right.

It&#39;s not the religions or the holy books that are evil or good, it&#39;s the way people interpret them.

There isn&#39;t much difference between the major religions, they all know periods of violence and enlightenment.
For many centuries Christian Europe was much more violent than the Muslim world.

[Xiaodun]

Originally posted by Brodiseus@May 24 2005, 08:08 AM

Good question.... Shintoism?

My country fought a war to spread the "divine power of the emperour" thats not my idea of being very welcoming.

[Ummon]

The old testament speaks of massacres and wars. The new testament doesn&#39;t. Christ clearly states that the law of the new testament supercedes that of the old one, and that "an eye for an eye" is not valid anymore, but "Love each other as I have loved you" (eg. die for you brothers if it&#39;s necessary) is.

Infact, most religions who have matured through the ages do preach peace, and never war. Islam preaches sometimes peace, and sometimes war. But if Islam preaches both, which interpretation is the right one? Is it right to be at Peace? Or is it right to be at War?

Infact, if both interpretations are true, an interesting paradox arises. While christianity states that non-christaians cannot reach salvation (although modern Catholic teachings have denied this too), christianism doesn&#39;t state that you should kill non-christians.

Hebraism, which is surely theorically less peaceful than christianism, has nonetheless a history of patience towards oppression, instead than a history of violence. Just think of the Holocaust.

Infact, one of the interesting aspects of Islam, is that it conquered aggressively most of the then known world, while Christianism did spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades (and the crusades were a reaction to Islamic invasion), and Hebraism through migration.

Here we have a holy book (the Koran) which says; "kill". Is Islam inherently evil?

[Mehmed II]

Here we have a holy book (the Koran) which says; "kill".

I can give you tens of quotes to refute your claims.... Stop wearing horse glasses. You&#39;re only going to fool yourself...

while Christianism did spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades

MY GOD READ HISTORY&#33;

[Ummon]

You can give me tens of quotes who say the opposite of the tens of quotes I can give you about the importance of violence against infidels. Both come from the Koran. So which one is the true Koran?

Mmmh, I did read history, multiple times, from multiple sources. Christianism did spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades.

[Perkele]

Originally posted by Ummon@May 24 2005, 03:39 PM
Infact, one of the interesting aspects of Islam, is that it conquered aggressively most of the then known world, while Christianism did spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades (and the crusades were a reaction to Islamic invasion), and Hebraism through migration.

Here we have a holy book (the Koran) which says; "kill". Is Islam inherently evil?

Peaceful my ******. Christianity spread because the kings of europe used it as a political tool. There&#39;s plenty of proof of that, one of them being that majority of the christian holidays are old pagan holidays.

[lecnac]

I dislike this thing...I dont know where we are heading with this...Ummon what is your intention? Do you want to show and prove that islam is a relgion of agression and terror?

Going that far, consequences become inevitably questioned as well. Should it be abolished therefore? Should we even fight and supress it because it is fundamentally evil?

We christians MAY NOT rise ourselves above those who believe in allah, the church sanctioned crusades alone show that our religion has NO moral superiority compared to islam&#33; The holy books have been and are currently used to evoke hatred and intolerance towards each other. This has to be stopped - not one of the different faiths.

In order to achieve peace and coexistance I urge not to reduce islam to those quotes. Who are we to judge and condemn the muslim belief? Doing so shows rather our own intolerance towards islam. Islam is a legitimate religion as any other, constitutionally protected in our contries as one of the basic freedoms for a reason&#33;

Europe has payed a toll in blood like no other place in this world due to religios differences. We should have learned the lesson by now, lets not start it all over again.

[Mehmed II]

You do not realize, all of those are linked.

For example, you can give me the quote slay whever ye find them, or any other violent quote. But there is also the other quote where it says the muslims shouldn&#39;t transgress limits.

There is a quote where it says the ummah can fight if the cause is justified, but there is also another quote where it says the community of Islam is forbidden to declare war to a nation which doesn&#39;t declare war upon them.

EDIT: I shall include this in my continuation of the traslation &#39;&#39;beginners for muhammad&#39;&#39;, lots of mistranslations occur in the english Quran.

An example:

The translation of the qu&#39;ran by nj.dawood:
Paganism is worse than massacre.

The true translation:
The tyranny is worse than killing.

Dawood: Herds
the Qu&#39;ran: The crowds

Dawood: The men will marry honorable virgins.
Quran: They will be clean partners for them.

Mmmh, I did read history, multiple times, from multiple sources. Christianism did spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades.

Really? Then what do you call what charlemagne did to the saxons, for example.

[Cleisthenes]

Originally posted by Erik+May 24 2005, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td> (Erik @ May 24 2005, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-OriginOfSymmetry@May 24 2005, 08:13 AM
the koran, like the bible, is a very long book, you can find him both pro and against tolarence to other religions say&#39;s. and anyone can quote those by his interest&#39;s
for explame, some arab leader can say that the koran said to kill all jews, but other leader can say that the koran said that arabs should live peacefully with their neighboors (just an explame, i dont really know what the koran says)

and soory about the bad english

He&#39;s right.

It&#39;s not the religions or the holy books that are evil or good, it&#39;s the way people interpret them.

There isn&#39;t much difference between the major religions, they all know periods of violence and enlightenment.
For many centuries Christian Europe was much more violent than the Muslim world. [/b][/quote]
Gee, but if the book is written by a bandit who raids the caravan route from Mecca to Syria and held a bloodied sword in his own hands during his lifetime, would that book be a little more suspect than one written by friends of a man who lifed a simple life that he preached, and surrendered peacefully rather than bring his followers trouble by resisting?

(The one is Mohammed and the other is Jesus.)

[Ummon]

Well, Christianism was the major religion in the Roman empire before the Emperors actually converted to Christianism.

It could be said that violence against heretic movements when it occurred spawned from the political need of the late Roman and Byzantine Emperors to have only ONE brand of christianism but this doesn&#39;t deny the fact that Christians didn&#39;t wage any war to spread their religion until the crusades...

Infact there were no christian Kings before christianism actually became the main religion in Europe...

What&#39;s my purpose? To ask the right questions, and possibly receive the right answers.

I personally think that Muslims have the right to preach their religion, but don&#39;t we have the right to ask ourselves questions about it?

Ah, the argument of translation. Heh, well, wonderful tongue one which holds thousands of meanings in a single word.

[Bovril]

Why is it that people feel the need to demonise Islam above all other religions. The history of Islam is no more blood soaked than that of Christianity or Judaism. The Koran is distincly less violent than large swathes of the Old Testament, which call for the dashing of gentile baby&#39;s skulls against rocks, and the recor the wrath of god when only the adult males of a gentile city were slain, promting the Israeli army to kill the women and children as well.
Even the New Testament has a bunch of passages which can and ahve been used to justify war of conquest and conversion.

Its perfectly possilbe to be a warmongering fundementalist of any almost religious persuation (I think Janism represents the one exception of the major world religions, even Buddhism had its warrior monks and so on). Its also possible for people from any religion to work towards peace and understanding, Here&#39;s an article written by a Muslim explaining how the Koran can be read to call for just that.
http://beliefnet.com/story/87/story_8753_1.html

[Xiaodun]

Ummon, does this topic have any purpose but to show your intense hatred of Islam?

Your last topic was named, Islam, the only inherently evil religion.

I suggest that anyone who doesnt want to get involved into another mudslinging fest, pull out of this topic immediately