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Thread: Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

  1. #1

    Icon4 Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Since I got many requests and questions on this issue I will make this official addition to Disgruntled Goat's announcement:

    From now on I will follow DG's example and I will not allow texture or model modifications of my units without my permission. Everything he said applies to my factions:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The textures and models found in Third Age: Total War used for the Easterling faction are the intellectual property of their creator DisgruntledGoat. These models and textures were created for the sole use of the Third Age mod and specifically for the official development team and King Kong. As their creator I have the final say in which way they may be used and released.

    To maintain the integrity of the work, as is a fundemental right given to any creator of intellectual property, I am forbiding their use in any mod other than the official TATW release. This means sub mods for TATW and other mods not in the LotR genre may not use the material unless permission is expressly given by their creator, DisgruntledGoat.

    The TWC recognizes the rights of the modders to protect their modding materials and will enforce the rules of intellectual property rights. Any mods that are posted for public consumption that contains my textures OR models that did not have my written permission will be reported to the administration.
    It is not my intention to forbid anyone making worse or better units than mine or to suppress anyone's work, but I have worked hard and with a lot of heart for over a year for this mod and so you will have to live with my design decisions.

    The same goes for all units of TATW unless their specific creators will explicit allow the modification of their factions and units. I will update this post with the decisions of the individual modders...

    Already finished units by the community don't have to be removed, unless it is requested by their respective creator(s).

    You can ask me for permission to use my units for any sub-mod via pm, but I will decide that individually.

    Thanks



    Status of the team-mebers:

    Disgruntled Goat (faction Rhun): no permission granted See below
    King Kong (faction Gondor/Mordor/OOMM/Harad/Rohan/Dwarves): on request
    Shredder (High &Silvan Elves): permission granted
    Alletun (Isengard): on request
    Louis Lux (High Elves):on request


    ~~~


    EDIT 30th November 2015:
    Updated modding rules here, including Louis Lux rules here and DisgruntledGoat's here


    regards Ngugi
    Local Moderator TATW
    Last edited by Ngugi; April 05, 2016 at 07:54 PM.

    Winner of 'Favorite M2TW Mod' and 'Favorite M2TW Modder' Award 2007 & 2008

  2. #2
    Oddball_E8's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    it doesnt say in the credits, who created what textures and models...

    might want to include that if people need to ask for permission (otherwise they will all go through you KK, wich will probarbly clut up your inbox)
    addicted modder... but crap at it

  3. #3

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Generally speaking, it worked like this:

    --High/Silvan Elves = Shredder
    --Gondor/Dwarves/Harad/OotMM/Mordor = King Kong
    --Rhun = DisgruntledGoat
    --Rohan = Dragut (with a lot of help from KK and DG)
    --Isengard = Alletun
    --Eriador/Dale = Krechet

    It's a bit messier than that (I think KK made hobbits for eriador, for example, and wildmen for Isengard), but that's the basic idea. When in doubt, you can check the preview subforum, as there is a faction preview for each faction with credits given.

  4. #4

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    I understand DGs and KKs posts perfectly well, and I am not personally a skinner or modeler, so the issue does not really arise for me, but I do find it a little... odd, that ye are asserting intellectual property rights, when all of this work is derivative of other original creators. You in fact did not invent the concepts and designs of any this game world: I believe that J.R.R. Tolkien, New Line Cinema, Peter Jackson and Weta Workshop would dispute that claim, particularly since TATW contains so much plainly pirated material.

    I am not in any way disputing your right to control the distribution of your models and skins under TWC rules, but you did in fact use (I assume without written permission) the work of others as the inspiration for your own. If someone else goes to the movies for textures or appearances, will they incur your displeasure? How would we be able to tell?

    Personally I have always believed that all Total War modifications should be open source, but that is not a popular position, I know.

    I do not wish to appear rude or to make you angry. I do think that you have taken a step beyond the normal practice on these forums. It is one thing to forbid the use of your models or skins by someone in a totally different mod ( for example, if there was a Second Age Total War team that wanted to use your work ), but to assert veto over a sub-mod of TATW is a horse of a different colour. And to contemplate shutting down all sub-mods is very extreme.
    Last edited by oudysseos; May 15, 2009 at 03:07 AM.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  5. #5

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    When people ask to use my work I just refer them to http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/.
    I do this precisely because of the reasoning you just explained Oudysseos. If someone uses something of mine and remixes it, it would only be fair for someone else to be able to remix that remix. The point you bring up is one of the reasons why there is such a rise in creative commons licenses, especially the share-alike one I posted.

    Now according to some jurisdictions all the work in this mod has always been property of New Line or whoever had the initial rights and in some other places it only becomes property of New Line upon request by New Line. There's no need for us to try to anally nitpick the actual laws because morally, as users and not creators, we need to respect all the time that was put in by the creators and accept their decision. There's still honor among thieves .

    You can try to morally debate why they should release it, but I don't think your going to give them any information they don't know and change their mind. Not really even worth bothering debating just on principle unless the devs start shooting down amazing new sub mods, which they have shown no indication of doing so far.
    Last edited by Lap; May 15, 2009 at 03:19 AM.

  6. #6
    Space Voyager's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by oudysseos View Post
    particularly since TATW contains so much plainly pirated material.
    Creating from scratch is NOT piracy. There was nothing COPIED from anyone, everything was CREATED. Creating by a (book, movie) model is not copying/piracy in terms of computer software.
    Last edited by Space Voyager; May 15, 2009 at 03:34 AM.

  7. #7
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    I can understand all this.

    The creators are more or less thinking of their work as their 'babies' (sort of). I can't really blame them.

    But like oudysseos said, it goes a bit into the extreme too much. Asking permission (implying that it can be denied) for even "unofficial" submods of TATW derived from the creativity and fanaticism of the community could result in a silencing backlash and drop in creativity (because it's not allowed to). I did the same once with my mod for RTW and I regret it now. I'm still happy that after all my work still have found its way to other mods in a very recognizeable shape. Perhaps I'm creating a doom scenario, but restricting submods in any way is a bad move. On the other hand I do think that a part of the credits should go to the original creators. It's IMO the least thing you can do to praise the original creator's work.

    Also how would the people at CA feel about the countless mods of their products they've worked long and hard for?

    In the end it's the people who choose to use a mod or not... And if they do they do it because they want to. If they don't, then because they don't want to. Setting up a barricade isn't the right thing to do.
    However I think that it's very reasonable to demand the mentioning of the original creators in the credits of a submod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Space Voyager View Post
    Creating from scratch is NOT piracy. There was nothing COPIED from anyone, everything was CREATED. Creating by a model is not copying/piracy in terms of computer software.
    Ehm what about the textures, the photos used for it and the whole inspiration behind all this? I'm not trying to be a here but a lot (apart from the models I can pretty safely assume) a lot is taken from other stuff and reworked/photoshopped to make it fit into a texture ready to be applied to a model. Unless the TATW has taken a trip to Middle Earth, have taken a few shots of orcs, trolls, and elves and reworked that...
    Last edited by Razor; May 15, 2009 at 03:38 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Time to play devil's advocate here:

    Let's use the example of the crazy anime den that is deviantart. A huge numbers of drawings on there are fan recreations of a some popular show they certainly didn't ask permission to recreate. Now some of the artists there care a lot about how many page views and comments they have.

    If someone edited someones big fancy mecha robot drawing from a popular show and put a mustache on it and then posted it with a little "original drawing by blah" under it that would be very frowned upon If that happened there would be a storm of rage since many people might not see the credit or might believe a huge change was made.

    Neither author fully owned the rights to their drawing of a protected anime icon, but it was still an unfair representation of the work each author put in. I think that with this smaller community it would be obvious who the original authors are, but I'm just trying to throw an example of a situation where even using things and giving credit without permission can be very morally wrong. I guess I could also see that original author getting kind of mad if it was used to mock his favorite mech by drawing a tutu on it or something. Not something I'd be concerned with, but I'm pretty thick skinned.
    Last edited by Lap; May 15, 2009 at 04:33 AM.

  9. #9
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by Lap View Post
    I guess I could also see that original author getting kind of mad if it was used to mock his favorite mech by drawing a tutu on it or something. Not something I'd be concerned with, but I'm pretty thick skinned.
    Classic!! I can already see the Witchking or an Olog Hai wearing a tutu... that calls for a submod! (just kidding)
    Last edited by Razor; May 15, 2009 at 04:26 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by Space Voyager View Post
    Creating from scratch is NOT piracy. There was nothing COPIED from anyone, everything was CREATED. Creating by a (book, movie) model is not copying/piracy in terms of computer software.
    I don't want to flog a dead horse or have a go at the devs, to whom I am grateful for a great mod, but the statement above is just so wrong.

    Using a book or a film that is not in the public domain for a Total War mod is in fact in violation of copyright in most jurisdictions: that's why you can sell 'Movie Rights', 'Game Rights', and 'Merchandising Rights'. The fact that these mods are free is what makes them unofficially tolerable to the right holders; we are all of us technically pirates and could be shut down if CA/SEGA or whoever wanted to make a stink about it (Lucas did so, I believe, with Star Wars RTW). The games, even modified, remain the intellectual property of CA: no mod team has the legal right to charge for their work.

    There is a tremendous amount of, let's not mince words, pirated material in TATW. All the images in the loading screens and splash screens have either been hacked from a DVD or scanned from a book: either way it's copyrighted material. Every single quote on the loading screens is copyrighted. A lot of the portraits are from the films, and even something like the camp map models of the Argonath, Minas Tirith, Isengard, etc. could be claimed by New Line or Jackson as their property, even if the dev team modeled them from scratch. They are clearly representations of copyrighted material. Music, map, symbols: most of it actually belongs to someone else. Most of all the names and concepts; "Aragorn", "Middle-Earth", "Uruk", "Edoras": even if the TATW team had not used the copyrighted material from the films for the graphical representation of peoples and places, they would still need permission from the Tolkien estate to represent them at all.

    Still, the Devs have the right to assert control over their work, because of the rules of TWC:

    Using Modders' Work Without Permission (3 or 6 points)
    Using or distributing part or all of any Total War modification without permission is prohibited.
    This is something that we all agree to by posting on or downloading from the TWC forum, but it is not an assertion of intellectual property rights.

    Frankly, I think that wlesmana got it exactly right for LORTW:

    There has been quite a bit of PMs I received lately on the permission to use this mod and its resources so I'd like to post that you don't need to contact me personally as long as you follow these rules:

    1. If you used anything from this mod, please use the proper credits. I did not do everything, just most of it. Please read up the Credits page in the mod for more details and who made what.

    2. I'd rather you not use any models based on the movies, especially if your mod is NOT based on the LOTR movies. However, models not based on the movies (Dale, Mirkwood elves, Variags, some Easterlings and Haradrim units, etc) are free to use as is.

    3. If you do want to use units based on the movies or heavily inspired by the movies, please take the time to alter at least their skins and make them different/more unique. For instance, I don't want you to show Gondorian Men-at-arms in a Narnia mod. But if you altered the Gondorian model/skin to look different, then it's fine. This is because the designs from the movies are not mine to give away.

    4. You do not need permission to create add-ons. It's up to you if you want to undertake such a project but you're solely responsible for it. If you released a beta, planned to work on it more and you gathered enough interest, contact me if you'd like a sub-forum here.

    5. Please ask if you want to create a mod BASED on this mod. If you're only using one or two resources (like unit models or animations) then you don't need to. But if what you're doing is basically copy the entirety of this mod then customizing stuff on your own (adding/removing factions or units, altering the map, etc), then you're making an add-on, not a full mod. I only ask that you be clear about it.
    Notice the part in bold: wles knows what's up: anything based on the films is not his to deny usage of.

    So when Disgruntled Goat asserts a Moral Right to restrict usage of 'his' work on the Easterlings, I look at this and wonder: whose work is it?

    Last edited by oudysseos; May 15, 2009 at 08:20 AM.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  11. #11
    Oddball_E8's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    im sure the devs asked for permission to use new lines/jacksons work...
    addicted modder... but crap at it

  12. #12

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
    Ehm what about the textures, the photos used for it and the whole inspiration behind all this? I'm not trying to be a here but a lot (apart from the models I can pretty safely assume) a lot is taken from other stuff and reworked/photoshopped to make it fit into a texture ready to be applied to a model. Unless the TATW has taken a trip to Middle Earth, have taken a few shots of orcs, trolls, and elves and reworked that...
    Thats wholly untrue. My work for instance is created from scratch using a graphics tablet and a grand total of 2 digital photos (I should add that those digital photos are of a piece of white cloth and Indian animal skin drum). I can't speak for the others however.

    EDIT
    Thats it. Adding to the announcement for my work. I'm damn tired of this pain in the ass from people, its not even like there were any REAL restrictions it was just being asked so there could be some common decency that TWC is so use to. Here is my final word on this matter. I'm not allowing anyone, anytime to use any of my material. Its for peoples personal use only and was meant to be used for TATW ONLY, i.e. for the use of King Kong. Like Broken Cresent I wish for my work not to be used in any sub mods or other mods. Don't bother asking me permission or sending me pms. Thats it, no body gets anything.
    Last edited by DisgruntledGoat; May 15, 2009 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by oudysseos View Post
    So when Disgruntled Goat asserts a Moral Right to restrict usage of 'his' work on the Easterlings, I look at this and wonder: whose work is it?
    He owns what's his and not stolen. For instance the heavy Gondorian soldiers are clearly modeled from the citadel guard from the films. But the Easterling stuff which was the original subject of the post is different. The concept of Easterlings in Middle Earth is not his, but the models and images of the warriors in and of themselves (without the Easterling label) are his property not in regards to Middle Earth. He could place them in his own game and call them "Armored Warrior Clan A" and it would be fine in regards to Middle Earth. He might not be fine however in regards to CA, but as CA allows mods it's not going to signify right now. So any way you slice it people can't use the models in "public." Either they belong to Tolkien/Jackson juggernaught, they are CAs or they are DGs. There might be an argument if you want to say DG infringed on CA and as they are CA's who allows modding, you can use them--but it regards to the actual models themselves (the data not their depiction in the game engine) it is simply his right to restrict their use.

    If they look like copyrighted material, doesn't matter if you made them yourself if you're talking about American law, sweat of the brow doctrine was invalidated almost 20 years ago. It's about using someone's way of expressing an idea.
    Last edited by SSJPabs; May 15, 2009 at 09:03 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    what DG meant was just to ask permission first and he has the right to decide because it is his works(models and textures), and people keep on complaining about that, you signed up in twc its in the rules and theres nothing you can do about it, go complain elsewhere.

    Modding is not completely legal, if the owners of those concepts or artworks or even the names used in a mod were to sue modders here, twc would close down

  15. #15

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
    Ehm what about the textures, the photos used for it and the whole inspiration behind all this? I'm not trying to be a here but a lot (apart from the models I can pretty safely assume) a lot is taken from other stuff and reworked/photoshopped to make it fit into a texture ready to be applied to a model.
    For anything that's not almost entirely flat, trying to turn a digital picture (assuming you even find a fairly symmetric one that doesn't suck) into a texture for a model is a huge pain, to the point where you might as well just do it from scratch and get a higher res texture to boot. DG said he didn't copy over digital photos and I highly doubt most of the rest of the team did judging by the textures I see on the models.

    Graphics tablets seem super awesome...until I try to use them and fail hard.

  16. #16
    trance's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    What the heck is wrong with you people? Is it so hard to actually send a PM and simply ASK for permission to modify someone else's work? While I am partially opposed to the whole idea of "intellectual property" seeing as I don't believe that anyone can own a thought, nor has the right to do so. But this is not really intellectual property, this is real WORK. Just like a drawing. If you wish to copy his drawing, you should of course ask him for permission. Didn't your parents teach you about "mine and yours"? hahaha.

    DG and KK, please don't even bother to argue with these people, you have the right to your work and you know it. You are right, they are wrong. Don't waste your time on this. You've been given right by TWC admins as well.

  17. #17
    egor's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    w0w! people is getting angry/grazy here!!!!




    Those, who don't eat, are eaten - Egor
    I do not steal victory - Μέγας Ἀλέξανδρος

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    I think this only makes PM bombards to developers of the mod, nothing more.

    this new way of submodding is not very suitable IMO.

  19. #19

    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiR TimuR View Post
    I think this only makes PM bombards to developers of the mod, nothing more.

    Is that why I have received a grant total of 3 pm requests. Clearly people are just CLAMORING about trying to make sub mods with our artistic works....

  20. #20
    Oddball_E8's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New Announcement Concerning Textures and Models of TATW

    well maby theres just 3 guys trying to make submods with your work in it...
    addicted modder... but crap at it

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